Optical Serenity
Member
I am thinking about a switch myself from a P32 to P3AT. I find its much easier to find .380 ammo, plus evidently they have better (i.e. more reliable) expansion than .32acp.
.32 v. .380?
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My P-32 (SN under 150, btw) would fire rounds that the NAA consistently would malfunction with, until the NAA had its throat/chamber polished. 
The P-32 started having a few malfs as it got dirty, over 50 rounds. I think I've had one more malf through the '32, somewhere around round 200, again as it was getting dirty from my 3rd range session. No malfs since.
I've had no malfs through my P-3AT.
John
The P-32 started having a few malfs as it got dirty, over 50 rounds. I think I've had one more malf through the '32, somewhere around round 200, again as it was getting dirty from my 3rd range session. No malfs since.I've had no malfs through my P-3AT.
John
Never heard of 'rimlock' in a .380... and while you are talking of micro sized pistols, a longer barrel like found on Colt's 1903 model 32 and 380 certainly make the rounds more lethal.
The 380 isn't much of a penetrator (with hps) when hitting heavy bone. At contact range it can do plenty... at 20 +feet you likely want an FMJ in either caliber.
The 380 isn't much of a penetrator (with hps) when hitting heavy bone. At contact range it can do plenty... at 20 +feet you likely want an FMJ in either caliber.
GlenJ
Member
Massad Ayoob has written several articles about how he has done some slaughter house testing with various 380 loads and that the round barely penetrates the smallest pigs skull. In some cases he reports that the 380 wouldnt penetrate the skull at all and this is why he had to stop testing the round on medium size animals.............just something to think about when it comes to defending yourself or your families lives....
Wow hope I never get attacked by a bunch of little pigs
Wow hope I never get attacked by a bunch of little pigs
I also own an older 32 Seecamp. Bought it used over a year ago for $350 with an extra mag. Never had any problems shooting it, even with the newer Silvertips. They have a web site, www.seecamp.com.
Between the two, the .380 is a little better, but not by very much. It also depends greatly on the platform its packaged in (which gun). Some would argue that you should carry FMJ in both these smaller calibers, but most agree that you should carry FMJ in .32ACP.
If you can find a .380 that works for you and you can conceal get it, if not look at the guns chambered for .32ACP. I personally owned a Seecamp 32 that jammed too much, about 10-12 in about 200-300 rounds, and you can ONLY fire HP ammo. Also I know the Seecamp is only 11.5 ozs unloaded, but loaded its about 13.5 ozs and thats fairly heavy for something so small.
I also had a KT .380 that was very unreliable, and the .380 recoil was fairly significant for such a small and light gun.
I now have a KT P-32 that has only jammed once in about 300 rounds, and that was at the beginning. It carries 8 rounds, has little recoil even with the hot S&B FMJ I carry and practice with. If I was the type of person who didn't mind the weight/size of a walther PPK/Guardian/Bersa in .380 then I'd go with that instead. But the P-32 fills a need.
If I want to go bigger I go with my P-11, and am currently waiting for a good deal on a S&W airweight in .38 special. Find out how much size/bulk you can deal with, and then see what gun/caliber you can find that will fit the bill, because it you go too big you won't carry it, and that defeats the point.
If you can find a .380 that works for you and you can conceal get it, if not look at the guns chambered for .32ACP. I personally owned a Seecamp 32 that jammed too much, about 10-12 in about 200-300 rounds, and you can ONLY fire HP ammo. Also I know the Seecamp is only 11.5 ozs unloaded, but loaded its about 13.5 ozs and thats fairly heavy for something so small.
I also had a KT .380 that was very unreliable, and the .380 recoil was fairly significant for such a small and light gun.
I now have a KT P-32 that has only jammed once in about 300 rounds, and that was at the beginning. It carries 8 rounds, has little recoil even with the hot S&B FMJ I carry and practice with. If I was the type of person who didn't mind the weight/size of a walther PPK/Guardian/Bersa in .380 then I'd go with that instead. But the P-32 fills a need.
If I want to go bigger I go with my P-11, and am currently waiting for a good deal on a S&W airweight in .38 special. Find out how much size/bulk you can deal with, and then see what gun/caliber you can find that will fit the bill, because it you go too big you won't carry it, and that defeats the point.
MachIVshooter
Member
And shoot one leg with a 9x19 and the other with a .40 short&weak and my guess is the only thing he'll know is that he is in a great deal of pain.
And you can cross the ocean in a 14' sail boat. That does not mean it is the best too for the job.
Within reason, the larger and more powerful the cartridge, the more effectively it will stop the threat. Any gun is better than no gun, but a .380 is definitely preferable to a .25 or .32 for obvious reasons. It has double the power and considerably more diameter. To argue that the .32 is as effective as the .380 would be akin to saying a .243 is as good an elk killer as a .300 win mag. IMO, .380 should be considered the minimum caliber for SD. With .380's now available in packages that are only marginally larger than .32's, I suspect the only thing that will keep the 7.65 Browning afloat is nostalgia or good marketing.
Just to preempt the inevitable, no one has forgotten the importance of shot placement.
axmurderer
Member
.380 is what I consider to be the minimum caliber I would trust as a self defense gun. And usually it is in a backup role to my .40 cal hi power.
I'd certainly take a .380 over a .32 as a self defense gun. I've owned a couple .380s: a Bersa Thunder, a Keltec P3AT and a Walther PPK/S. The P3AT is unbeatable for concealability, and I've had good reliability from mine. I'd recommend it.
I'd certainly take a .380 over a .32 as a self defense gun. I've owned a couple .380s: a Bersa Thunder, a Keltec P3AT and a Walther PPK/S. The P3AT is unbeatable for concealability, and I've had good reliability from mine. I'd recommend it.
I carry a nickel P-3AT loaded with hot Santa Barbara truncated cone FMJs, I consider it to be more than adequate for its intended purpose.
It is reliable, combat accurate at 10 yards, and a pleasure to carry in a front pocket wrapped in an Uncle Mike's #1 holster.
I switched from Golden Sabers to FMJ, they were just too weak to give any confidence of adequate penetration with reliable expansion.
Even out of the P-3AT the Santa Barbara rounds should give me through and through penetration, there's something very comforting about that. Seven of them are enough to deal with the majority of threats.
I tried carrying a compact in an IWB and it's just too much like hard work. The P-3AT is perfect.
It is reliable, combat accurate at 10 yards, and a pleasure to carry in a front pocket wrapped in an Uncle Mike's #1 holster.
I switched from Golden Sabers to FMJ, they were just too weak to give any confidence of adequate penetration with reliable expansion.
Even out of the P-3AT the Santa Barbara rounds should give me through and through penetration, there's something very comforting about that. Seven of them are enough to deal with the majority of threats.
I tried carrying a compact in an IWB and it's just too much like hard work. The P-3AT is perfect.
5string_dean
Member
I'll second (third, fourth...?) the recommendation of a Kel-Tec P3AT.... I've got a 2nd generation P3AT with the hard chromed slide and it's been absolutely flawless in terms of reliability through about 400-500 rounds --- both FMJ and JHP ammo of various sorts. I've gotten the impression that the 2nd generation P3ATs (with funky exteranl Franken-bolt extractor) are in general more reliable than the earlier ones.
Despite it's small size it is easier to shoot (less recoil) than my larger Kel-Tec P11 9mm. My only gripe is that out at 25 yards I have to aim about 8" to the right of the bullseye, but at the intended range it's accurate enough. And it's so very easy to conceal!
Despite it's small size it is easier to shoot (less recoil) than my larger Kel-Tec P11 9mm. My only gripe is that out at 25 yards I have to aim about 8" to the right of the bullseye, but at the intended range it's accurate enough. And it's so very easy to conceal!
Usually more power = better
However, the arguments that I've heard for the 32 ACP revolved around penetration. I don't know which penetrates better (I hear the 32?), but I do subscribe to the idea that a 10 inch .32 caliber hole has more stopping potential than a 6 inch deep .35 caliber hole, given the same shot placement. Note, I made those depths up.
The decision must be debatable, else the introduction of the the p3-AT would have killed the p32 (the sizes are indistiguishable, so if one cartrige was clearly superior the other would suffer tremendously!).
As for a pistol working 100% from the factory, I wouldn't know about that. I do know that if that's all it took for a superior solution to pocket carry, I wouldn't hesitate to work with it (by 5 and keep the most reliable, F&B, factory work, whatever). If there was a similar weight pistol that worked flawlessly, I'd be all over it. There's not, that's the reality. I'm not goint to teach them a lesson by getting something else less optimal. Keltecs keep my business because I can't stand anything in my pockets, and they are the closest thing to that.
However, the arguments that I've heard for the 32 ACP revolved around penetration. I don't know which penetrates better (I hear the 32?), but I do subscribe to the idea that a 10 inch .32 caliber hole has more stopping potential than a 6 inch deep .35 caliber hole, given the same shot placement. Note, I made those depths up.
The decision must be debatable, else the introduction of the the p3-AT would have killed the p32 (the sizes are indistiguishable, so if one cartrige was clearly superior the other would suffer tremendously!).
As for a pistol working 100% from the factory, I wouldn't know about that. I do know that if that's all it took for a superior solution to pocket carry, I wouldn't hesitate to work with it (by 5 and keep the most reliable, F&B, factory work, whatever). If there was a similar weight pistol that worked flawlessly, I'd be all over it. There's not, that's the reality. I'm not goint to teach them a lesson by getting something else less optimal. Keltecs keep my business because I can't stand anything in my pockets, and they are the closest thing to that.
gunfan
Member
I like 'em BOTH, however...
The .32 ACP is a better penetrator. Shot placement, of course, is the prime directive! A poorly placed shot by any handgun will serve to do little but exacerbate the situation and irritate the object of the exercise!
That said, either cartridge will work when judiciously (and appropriately) applied.
Scott
The .32 ACP is a better penetrator. Shot placement, of course, is the prime directive! A poorly placed shot by any handgun will serve to do little but exacerbate the situation and irritate the object of the exercise!
That said, either cartridge will work when judiciously (and appropriately) applied.
Scott
Headless Thompson Gunner
Member
Any documentation for this?
It seems to me that the heavier .380 bullet penetrate better. I'm curious to know whether this is true.
gunfan
Member
I have a personal friend...
that was a CIA operative in Central America. He employed a suppressed Mauser chambered in .32 ACP. The narrow FMJ projectile may not be a powerhouse, but it did penetrate a skull with consummate alacrity. This was due to a longer projectile concentrating it's energy in an area of only .312 inches.
While this was an "assassin's" application, it never failed to achieve the desired results. Death was generally instantaneous and there was limited time to struggle. With the appropriate suppressor, the pistol's report was that of a "handclap."
This speaks well of the .32 ACP FMJ's performance in capable hands.
Scott
that was a CIA operative in Central America. He employed a suppressed Mauser chambered in .32 ACP. The narrow FMJ projectile may not be a powerhouse, but it did penetrate a skull with consummate alacrity. This was due to a longer projectile concentrating it's energy in an area of only .312 inches.
While this was an "assassin's" application, it never failed to achieve the desired results. Death was generally instantaneous and there was limited time to struggle. With the appropriate suppressor, the pistol's report was that of a "handclap."
This speaks well of the .32 ACP FMJ's performance in capable hands.
Scott
45crittergitter
Member
Since the .32 is semi-rimmed and the .380 is rimless, I suggest that all other things being equal, the .380 would likely be a bit more reliable in functioning.
Texfire
Member
Just to confuse the issue. Wasn't there a manuafacturer that designed a pistol around a .380 cartridge necked down to .32? Maybe NAA?
Texfire, if I remember correctly, the 32NAA was devloped by NAA and CorBon together.
The round uses a light 60gr bullet at over 1200fps.
Expansion is very good, but penetration is IMO, poor!
In a gelatin test that I read about,, the 32NAA penetrated only 6-1/2"!
IMO, the FBI and many gun experts, 6-1/2' is just not enough penetration.
The round uses a light 60gr bullet at over 1200fps.
Expansion is very good, but penetration is IMO, poor!
In a gelatin test that I read about,, the 32NAA penetrated only 6-1/2"!
IMO, the FBI and many gun experts, 6-1/2' is just not enough penetration.
Bobo
Member
Texfire,
Some info on the 32NAA cartridge.
MachIVshooter
Member
According to the gunshops I frequent, it nearly did. They all said that P32 sales fell to a fraction of what they were when the P3 came out. It is still outselling the P32 10 to 1 around here.
45crittergitter;
The semi-rim case shape was developed specifically for reliable feeding and extraction. Early ammo was of low quality and much of the powder was "dirty". The semi-rim is far more reliable than a straight case from the time it leaves the magazine until the time it leaves the chamber. The firing cycle is the most critical parameter of cartridge performance.
The semi-rim case shape was developed specifically for reliable feeding and extraction. Early ammo was of low quality and much of the powder was "dirty". The semi-rim is far more reliable than a straight case from the time it leaves the magazine until the time it leaves the chamber. The firing cycle is the most critical parameter of cartridge performance.
45crittergitter
Member
Well, the .32 sometimes has "rim-lock" in the mag, according to various shooters, while the .380 doesn't. Kel-Tec even has a part you can buy to "fix" this. Apparently it's not an issue to feed the last round, but sometimes the rims hang on each other when a mag has more than one round in it; one reason why you don't see too many .357 Mag or .38 Special autos. Earlier .32 Silvertips had a special rim design to minimize this (I think the current ones are more conventional), which is why some .32 pistol manufacturers recommended the Silvertip exclusively.
You might have confused feed reliability with substandard ammo. If you make ammo with the wrong overall length it might jam. This is not peculiar to the 32 ACP. Witness the feed problems of a 380 ACP Grendel or Walther PP, PPK, PPKs. The legendary H&K P9S feeds perfectly with the short OAL 45ACP 185gr Silvertips. It will not feed well with 230gr HydraShock. The OAL is significant but has little to do with the cartridge.
Both 380 ACP and 45 ACP are good cartridges but bad ammo is bad ammo. Rimlock can happen in some designs (like 32ACP) if you use substandard length ammo. But substandard length ammo will stop many guns.
The 32 ACp Silvertip didn't have a different case, it had a different projectile profile. The case shape is set by SAMMI etc. There certainly is a difference between old and new Silvertips.
Both 380 ACP and 45 ACP are good cartridges but bad ammo is bad ammo. Rimlock can happen in some designs (like 32ACP) if you use substandard length ammo. But substandard length ammo will stop many guns.
The 32 ACp Silvertip didn't have a different case, it had a different projectile profile. The case shape is set by SAMMI etc. There certainly is a difference between old and new Silvertips.
106rr, Rim lock can not happen with most auto loading cartridges, but it will and does happen with the full rimmed 32cal cartridge when there is enough room in the magazine for the cartridges to move forward and back.
If a 32 cal cartridge moves back and the protruding rim rides over the rim of the cartridge below, you have rim lock!
This can not happen with other auto pistol cartridges (380, 9mm, 45acp etc) because they do not have protruding rims.
If you are familiar with the 32cal Seacamp pistol, you know that it was designed to use only one cartridge, the silvertip.
The Seacamp 32cal magazine is designed with very limited space that only the short OAL silvertip cartridge would fit into thus preventing forward and back cartridge movement in an attempt to prevent "rim lock"!
KelTec came out with a spacer for their P-32 pistol's magazine to prevent forward and back movement of short OAL jhp ammo.
Problem is, when the spacer is installed, you could no longer fit fmj ammo with a longer OAL into the KelTec magazine and like with the Seacamp you are than limited to jhp ammo which usually has a short OAL.
If a 32 cal cartridge moves back and the protruding rim rides over the rim of the cartridge below, you have rim lock!
This can not happen with other auto pistol cartridges (380, 9mm, 45acp etc) because they do not have protruding rims.
If you are familiar with the 32cal Seacamp pistol, you know that it was designed to use only one cartridge, the silvertip.
The Seacamp 32cal magazine is designed with very limited space that only the short OAL silvertip cartridge would fit into thus preventing forward and back cartridge movement in an attempt to prevent "rim lock"!
KelTec came out with a spacer for their P-32 pistol's magazine to prevent forward and back movement of short OAL jhp ammo.
Problem is, when the spacer is installed, you could no longer fit fmj ammo with a longer OAL into the KelTec magazine and like with the Seacamp you are than limited to jhp ammo which usually has a short OAL.
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