.338-06 vs .30-06 for a Bush Gun.

[KansasTrapper77]

This is a theoretical rifle I’d like to build.

Find a Bubba’ed M1903 or preferably an M1917 cut the Barrel to 20”. Install a simple but rugged set of iron sights, and mount a Low to Medium power scope and call it good. A detachable box mag would be slick but I haven’t heard of one yet for either of those rifles.

My question to you fella’s is which caliber would you go with? .338-06 or .30-06. Ranging from whitetails to very slim possibility of meeting Mr. Grizz.

The reason I even consider the .338 is a little heavier bullet and the possibility of getting a little better powder burn in the 20” barrel than the .30 cal. I would consider 35 Whelen over .338 but I just think the bullet choices for .338 are more plentiful. .30-06 gets alot of pros for bullet choice, factory availability, and not having to rebarrel.

This is more of a hypothetical question about the larger calibers burning powder more efficiently in the 20” or shorter barrel.

Thanks for discussion.

 

[Jim Watson]

While the .338 will have a little better expansion ratio, I don't know if it is enough to be more "efficient" with all the variations in barrel, bullet, and powder.
The most economical approach would be to buy that Bubbaed .30-06 and shoot it. Saw the barrel off an inch at a time and see if it suits. If it does you are all set, if not, then buy the .338 barrel.

 

[KansasTrapper77]

While the .338 will have a little better expansion ratio, I don't know if it is enough to be more "efficient" with all the variations in barrel, bullet, and powder.
The most economical approach would be to buy that Bubbaed .30-06 and shoot it. Saw the barrel off an inch at a time and see if it suits. If it does you are all set, if not, then buy the .338 barrel.

Oh definitely the more economical route just kinda curious if y’all thought a larger bore would get more powder burnt in the shortish barrel.

 

[Chuck R.]

I've basically been wanting the same thing, but in a Rem 760 or 7600. I started a thread on it here:

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/custom-rem-7600-or-760.899223/

My vote would be for either the .338-06 or the .338 federal (IF you wanted to go the short action route). I would not turn my nose up at either a .35Whelen or .358 Win though. You will get more velocity just due to the larger expansion ratio and a little more powder due to the wider diameter neck. A good example is the .338 Federal VS the .308Win.

https://www.americanhunter.org/content/head-to-head-308-winchester-vs-338-federal/

The velocities of the .338 Federal aren’t shabby at all, with a 200-grain bullet leaving the muzzle at 2700 fps, compare that to the 200-grain .308 Winchester load at a velocity of 2550 fps.

Either would be my idea of the perfect woods gun, IF you anticipated the possibility of having to stretch your range to 300yds.

I've got a .350RM in a Rem M7 now, and I appreciate how well the mid-bores smack game.

 

[KansasTrapper77]

This idea is a little less deer drive rifle and more you can only bring one rifle on the bush plane. Mortally reliable action with controlled feed.

I have a nice Marlin Guide gun in 45-70 for my deer drives but its more for those 100 yards or less shots.

This rifle I’m envisioning is capable of 300 - 400 yard shots if necessary but wieldy enough if you spook Mr. Griz on accident. If Ruger made their scout rifle in long action I wouldn’t even have to bother.

 

[skfullen]

Ruger makes the Scout in .308. By the time you shorten the barrel on a 30-06 there won't be much difference in performance downrange.

 

[jmr40]

I've had both as well as 45-70 and 35 Whelen. Kept the 30/06, sold the rest. For some reason people only think of the 30-06 with 150-180 gr bullets. The original load was 220 gr. And a 220 from a 30-06 does exactly the same thing as a 250 from a 338/06. Or a 250 from a 35 Whelen. And they make 250's in 30 caliber. You're going to have to handload to get the heavier bullets to perform in 30-06. But you're going to have to do the same with 338/06 or 35 Whelen.

If you start a 200 gr bullet from either yes, you can get more MV from a 338 or 35 Whelen. But due to the longer bullet length in relation to diameter the 200 gr 30-06 bullet will catch up in speed relatively quickly and it will out penetrate either the 338 or 35 at any range. Muzzle velocity doesn't mean much, it is impact velocity that matters.

And this isn't just theoretical. Finn Aagard, a well known and respected African guide and gun writer spent considerable time testing various cartridges on larger game in Africa. He came to the conclusion that 30-06, or 300 WM loaded with heavier 200-220 gr bullets out performed everything else until you got to 375 H&H. The Alaska F&G dept. did similar testing to determine the best option for brown and grizzly bear protection. They reached the exact same conclusion.

I've never had one. But if I wanted more than 30/06 could offer and something that would be an easy conversion I'd look hard at the 9.3X62. Now you have something based on 30/06 capable of bullets approaching 300 gr. And something that is legal for game up to elephant. At least in some countries.

 

[Riomouse911]

Or assemble a short-action rifle in .338 Federal.

Something like a model 7 action would be an awesome foundation.

With a 20” barrel you might as well go full-compact .

Stay safe.

 

[Jeff62]

20 years ago I got a REM Sportsman 78 30/06 for cheap. I had it rebarreled to 35 Whelen, I polished the receiver, reblued,installed aTimney trigger and ordered a partial inlet stock from Fajen. I cut and carved and sanded for two months and topped it off with an old a weaver 4x. I handload 250gr jacketed running 2250fps. She is minute of angle
I enjoyed every minute I worked on this rifle and it is still my go to shooter.
I hope you find your dream parts. You will enjoy your build.

 

[KansasTrapper77]

Or assemble a short-action rifle in .338 Federal.

Something like a model 7 action would be an awesome foundation.

With a 20” barrel you might as well go full-compact .

Stay safe.

For reasons I cannot explain I’m not a huge .308 fan. But it is more economically viable than even 30-06 and of course is available in the Ruger Scout rifle. I’m just a big 30-06 fan.

 

[Chuck R.]

Ron Spomer did a pretty good comparison on the .35W and 30-06 with 220 grns that's worth reading:

https://www.ronspomeroutdoors.com/blog/35-whelen-poor-mans-375-hamph

IAW his charts the 30-06 with the 220 Partition at 2600FPS doesn't catch the 35W with either the 200s or the 225 at 2800Fps till sometime past 300yds..maybe when zero'd for MPBR using an 8" kill zone. And IAW his charts the .358 200 grn Nosler AB has less drop and less drift than the 30-06 .308 220 partition at 300yds, the 35W also has more retained velocity and energy. So it appears for these loads that he compared "relatively quickly" is somewhere past 300 yds.

I know that using my 350RM's data with a 225 partition at 2730FPS my load carries more energy to 400yds (1907lbs and 1953 FPS) than Spomer's listed 30-06 220 grain load does to 300yds (1771lbs and 1904FPS).

Honestly though, since we're discussing a woods rifle, I'd think that energy and frontal diameter would play more of an important role than BC. Also, IMHO while SD is one measure of performance, bullet construction can have a significant impact on penetration.

 

[someguy2800]

Wouldn't have to rebarrel it. Could just get it rebored by JES

 

[js8588]

I've had both as well as 45-70 and 35 Whelen. Kept the 30/06, sold the rest. For some reason people only think of the 30-06 with 150-180 gr bullets. The original load was 220 gr. And a 220 from a 30-06 does exactly the same thing as a 250 from a 338/06. Or a 250 from a 35 Whelen. And they make 250's in 30 caliber. You're going to have to handload to get the heavier bullets to perform in 30-06. But you're going to have to do the same with 338/06 or 35 Whelen.

If you start a 200 gr bullet from either yes, you can get more MV from a 338 or 35 Whelen. But due to the longer bullet length in relation to diameter the 200 gr 30-06 bullet will catch up in speed relatively quickly and it will out penetrate either the 338 or 35 at any range. Muzzle velocity doesn't mean much, it is impact velocity that matters.

And this isn't just theoretical. Finn Aagard, a well known and respected African guide and gun writer spent considerable time testing various cartridges on larger game in Africa. He came to the conclusion that 30-06, or 300 WM loaded with heavier 200-220 gr bullets out performed everything else until you got to 375 H&H. The Alaska F&G dept. did similar testing to determine the best option for brown and grizzly bear protection. They reached the exact same conclusion.

I've never had one. But if I wanted more than 30/06 could offer and something that would be an easy conversion I'd look hard at the 9.3X62. Now you have something based on 30/06 capable of bullets approaching 300 gr. And something that is legal for game up to elephant. At least in some countries.

Yeah, I'd do 9.3x62 as well. Fantastic all 'rounder.

 

[Varminterror]

1) I wouldn’t use such heavy actions as my starting point for such a purpose designed rifle

2) Cutting barrels doesn’t make a 308 case the equal of a 30-06 case. The bigger case still can sustain a longer pressure curve - higher net force = greater acceleration = higher velocity (we simply get more blast at the muzzle for larger cases in short barrels)

3) Bigger bores get more velocity (also requiring slightly more powder) with the same bullet weight - same pressure over greater area = higher net force = see above

4) It’s a horse-a-piece for this comparison, but I’d personally get the 338 A Square over the .30-06 in this scenario. All things being equal, it yields a lighter rifle, higher performance, with better 220-250 class bullets available.

 

[Slamfire]

I made a 35 Whelen, and have a number of 35 Whelen's. I think the 338-06 would be an outstanding cartridge out to 300 yards. Not that any cartridge will "shoot through brush", but rather because of the affects a larger and heavier bullet will have on game.

Take a look at @35 Whelen experience with his 35 Whelen on game. Your experience should be similar

35 Whelen- Need some experience feedback

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ome-experience-feedback.874461/#post-11629245


I have had shallow shoulder issues in the 35 Whelen cause misfires and hangfires. The firing pin is actually resizing the case, and that cushions the firing pin blow. I don't think you will have that in 338-06, but if there is a sharper shouldered version, go for that. The more abrupt the shoulder, the better for consistent ignition. The 35 Whelen is the only cartridge I have where I set the sizing die to set the shoulder to zero clearance in the chamber. In fact, there may be a slight crush fit I cannot feel. And, I use Federal primers, the most sensitive primers on the market. To fix misfires and hangfires in my Mauser, I found a firing pin with more protrusion. Never had a problem with my M700 Remington, don't know why. My Ruger #1 was unreliable because of excessive firing pin offset, and the factory fixed that by raising the breech block.

I will say, a larger and heavier bullet will also have an affect on you. Shooting for groups, on a bench, I am kicking like a jackass before 20 rounds have gone downrange. Shooting 200, 220 grains bullets knock me out of position, the scope hit my glasses, and I have to reset the bench rest each shot. I finally installed a smaller scope that I could move a little more forward as I got tired of having a scope in my eye. And the 250 grain bullets, horrible, horrible recoil. Big badda boom!

The muzzle blast is bad enough with a 22 inch barrel



with a 20 inch barrel



eh gads!

 

[Chuck R.]

Or assemble a short-action rifle in .338 Federal.

Something like a model 7 action would be an awesome foundation.

With a 20” barrel you might as well go full-compact .

Stay safe.

If I didn't already have my M7 in .350RM its the route I'd take. Light, compact, and lethal.

 

[Riomouse911]

If I didn't already have my M7 in .350RM its the route I'd take. Light, compact, and lethal.

Gotcha! I bet that .350 brings the mail in that Model 7…at both ends.

Stay safe.

 

[DM~]

.338-06 vs .30-06 for a Bush Gun.

I thought everyone knew by now, there's no such thing as a "brush gun"!

DM

 

[Gtscotty]

I made a 35 Whelen, and have a number of 35 Whelen's. I think the 338-06 would be an outstanding cartridge out to 300 yards. Not that any cartridge will "shoot through brush", but rather because of the affects a larger and heavier bullet will have on game.

Take a look at @35 Whelen experience with his 35 Whelen on game. Your experience should be similar

35 Whelen- Need some experience feedback

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ome-experience-feedback.874461/#post-11629245


I have had shallow shoulder issues in the 35 Whelen cause misfires and hangfires. The firing pin is actually resizing the case, and that cushions the firing pin blow. I don't think you will have that in 338-06, but if there is a sharper shouldered version, go for that. The more abrupt the shoulder, the better for consistent ignition. The 35 Whelen is the only cartridge I have where I set the sizing die to set the shoulder to zero clearance in the chamber. In fact, there may be a slight crush fit I cannot feel. And, I use Federal primers, the most sensitive primers on the market. To fix misfires and hangfires in my Mauser, I found a firing pin with more protrusion. Never had a problem with my M700 Remington, don't know why. My Ruger #1 was unreliable because of excessive firing pin offset, and the factory fixed that by raising the breech block.

I will say, a larger and heavier bullet will also have an affect on you. Shooting for groups, on a bench, I am kicking like a jackass before 20 rounds have gone downrange. Shooting 200, 220 grains bullets knock me out of position, the scope hit my glasses, and I have to reset the bench rest each shot. I finally installed a smaller scope that I could move a little more forward as I got tired of having a scope in my eye. And the 250 grain bullets, horrible, horrible recoil. Big badda boom!

The muzzle blast is bad enough with a 22 inch barrel

View attachment 1068450

with a 20 inch barrel

View attachment 1068451

eh gads!

I had ignition issues due to the minimal shoulder in .35 Whelen as well, in factory Hornady brass to boot. And I'd agree, 250s at warm book loads in the .35 were past my fun zone.... 286s @ 2,400 in 9.3 even more so.

Personally I'd just stick with the .30-06, but if the OP wants something different, I'd take the .338-06 over .35 Whelen for the more significant shoulder, and the larger, better bullet selection.

 

[Varminterror]

I thought everyone knew by now, there's no such thing as a "brush gun"!

DM

The dude asked about a BUSH gun, as in a compact rifle meant for transport in a bush plane. Not asking about shooting through brush.

 

[Chuck R.]

I thought everyone knew by now, there's no such thing as a "brush gun"!

DM

A lot of guys (most?) know about the whole brush deflection thing, there's been numerous tests done.

To some of us, a brush gun, woods gun, timber rifle etc, just means a more compact rifle/carbine, usually with irons or a lower power scope built for ease of use in dense cover.

Gotcha! I bet that .350 brings the mail in that Model 7…at both ends.

Stay safe.

When I bought it I was stationed at Ft. Lewis, WA and chasing Elk around St. Helen's. The M7 in 350Rm was superb for that terrain. Don't really need the oomph here in KS for whitetails... The .338 Federal would be a better fit, and more fun off the bench!

 

[KansasTrapper77]

I thought everyone knew by now, there's no such thing as a "brush gun"!

DM

I said bush gun as in “Alaskan bush” or “Bush plane” its not for shooting through bush its for being carried through bush, rugged enough to survive it, and strong enough cartridge to take Mr. Griz when he decides he would like a taste of what you’re having for dinner.

 

[KansasTrapper77]

I had ignition issues due to the minimal shoulder in .35 Whelen as well, in factory Hornady brass to boot. And I'd agree, 250s at warm book loads in the .35 were past my fun zone.... 286s @ 2,400 in 9.3 even more so.

Personally I'd just stick with the .30-06, but if the OP wants something different, I'd take the .338-06 over .35 Whelen for the more significant shoulder, and the larger, better bullet selection.

I hadn’t heard of these misfire issues with the .35W which would kind of remove it from the running for a rugged reliable bush gun. You could fix some of those issues I’m sure with quality hand loading, but what if you had to buy ammo? But that argument kinda heaps coals on the .338-06 as I’ve never seen a factory box of it in my life.

 

[Riomouse911]

I hadn’t heard of these misfire issues with the .35W which would kind of remove it from the running for a rugged reliable bush gun. You could fix some of those issues I’m sure with quality hand loading, but what if you had to buy ammo? But that argument kinda heaps coals on the .338-06 as I’ve never seen a factory box of it in my life.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1001749368?pid=616857

338-06 A Square is a factory round.
Its not very popular, so be prepared to pay!

Stay safe.

 

[WVRJ]

A couple of months ago I took in a Bubba'd 338 Lapua barrelled action for building the owner a new 338 Lapua on a PTG action.I got a bolt with a 30-06 face,cut the Lapua chamber off the medium Palma barrel and contoured it to a sporter profile.I chambered it for 338-06 and cut it off to 20 inches.It will turn mid 2700's with 185 grain bullets easily.I had it in a stock off of one of my other 700's for preliminary testing,and bedded the stock it'll actually be in yesterday.I weighed all the pieces and it's going to weigh around 7.5 pounds loaded and ready to go hunting,depending on what I decide to use for an optic.With a Magpul detachable magazine setup it'll hold 6 in the mag and one in the barrel.Recoil will be mean,but I'm not planning to shoot F-class with it.I plan on using bullets that weigh between 200 and 225 grains.I had a 35 Whelen until someone wanted it really bad,and I got along great with it,but the 338 will shoot a little flatter.I'm going on one last big elk hunt in the next year or two and this stubby little rifle will be what I'm going to take.