.351 Winchester Self Loading Rifle (M1907)?

[kcofohio]

Over the weekend I made it out to the gun range to try a couple new to me guns.

As my usual custom, with nobody else there, I made my rounds looking for brass. I picked up an unfired cartridge, but the lighting was too dim for identification.

When I got home, I checked the headstamp. .351 SLR & JBA. The web search turned up that it is for a .351 Winchester Model 1907 Self Loading rifle.

That got me even more curious. I did more searching. Per Wikipedia, the .351 was poduced from 1907-1957. And that the French military ordered 250,000 of them around WWI, and converted them to automatics. The originals came with a 5 rd. magazine, but the French fitted them with higher capacity magazines.

Never heard of one before now. Anyone else know much about them?
Just a curiosity.

 

[444]

Interesting. I don't know much about it, but I seem to remember seeing it (in TV shows or books) used now and then by law enforcement during the prohibition days. Like chasing Bonny and Clyde type of thing. It seems to me that when I was growing up, our local police department had one (or more?) of these: one of my best friend's dad was a local cop and we were both into guns and I kinda of remember him telling me about it.

I guess it fits sort of in the same niche as the 7.62x39 or the .300 AAC Blackout type of medium/small side genre.

Basically just chiming in to see what other people say about it.

 

[Picher]

That was the first rifle I worked on when I started my gunsmithing/repair business in the early 70s. The recoil spring surrounds the barrel, inside an outer metal cover that makes the rifle quite muzzle-heavy. On the one I worked on, I removed the nut at the muzzle, but the washer was rusted to the barrel.

Working on our dining room table, I tried several ways to remove it and it finally came off...ballistically...making a crescent-shaped ding in our new, expensive, imported wallpaper. The wife wasn't impressed!!! Gunsmithing work was then relegated to the basement.

Anyway, the rifle shot well and recoil was quite mild. The magazine is internal, as I remember. The receiver is relatively thin and may not take scope mounting...never saw one scoped.

 

[FL-NC]

They were used by law enforcement in the days before guns like the AR, M1 carbine, etc. were invented. The only other options back then for autos were tommy guns and the like.

 

[Jim Watson]

Picher, you describe the Remington Model 8/81 rifle, a John Browning recoil operated design.
The Winchester Self Loaders are blowback operated with a bolt extension and weight inside the foreend and a cocking rod protruding out the foreend cap.
There were the 1903 .22 WSL (NOT Long Rifle), 1905 .32 and .35 WSL (.30 Carbine is based on .32 WSL), 1907 .351 WSL, and 1910 .401 WSL. And then the Model 63 when they figured noncorrosive .22 LR was widely enough available to support an automatic.

 

[kcofohio]

The cartridge sample I found may be a light primer strike.

BTW, the JBA I believe stands for Jamison Brass & Ammo(Ammunition). Jamison seems to be about the only one out there that produces this cartridge, among some other rare cartridges.

 

[kcofohio]

They were used by law enforcement in the days before guns like the AR, M1 carbine, etc. were invented. The only other options back then for autos were tommy guns and the like.

Somewhere I read that some were fitted with a pistol grip.

 

[Sam1911]

If you do a Google image search you'll see a number of fantastic old ads for the .351 WSL and some pictures of a few with extended magazines and forward vertical grips.

Very much in the line of great "G-man" rifles, like the Rem. Model 8, Colt Monitor, Win Model 1910, and others adapted to fill the niche that the AR-15 would take today.

 

[kcofohio]

If you do a Google image search you'll see a number of fantastic old ads for the .351 WSL and some pictures of a few with extended magazines and forward vertical grips.

Very much in the line of great "G-man" rifles, like the Rem. Model 8, Colt Monitor, Win Model 1910, and others adapted to fill the niche that the AR-15 would take today.

I tried google, but my phone app or settings wouldn't pull anything up.
From a quick search through Gun Broker, it looks like an interesting semi-auto rifle for a 110 year old gun.

 

[Sistema1927]

Recently seen in the AMC series "The Son":

http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Son,_The_(TV_Series)#Winchester_Model_1907

 

[FN in MT]

My old Agency had .351's in the late 1930's. When we were cleaning out Supply years back, during a move to new digs...I found a few empty Red/Green RP .351 WSL ammo boxes. We also had Win 94 .30-30's too years back. Then a few too many rural Troopers used them to fill deer/elk tags while on duty and they were taken away! True story.

 

[Gordon]

Um I admit towning a nice 1907 Carbine and actually shooting it this year. They really feel good- perfectly balanced and short but at 7 pounds not a lightweight from that big forged breech block ! I think with a decent mag they must be stone reliable- the fired cartridge is gonna come out rather forcibly and the feed is pretty straight line slammed home by a stout spring. Yes they were a favored prison guard gun, which is what mine was. A .35 cal 180 grain bullet at 1800 FPS has got to be a good man stopper to 200 yards and maybe 150 on deer . Mine is very accurate, , 4" at 100 yards a couple years ago with factory ammo, my old eyes and the semi buckhorn sights I reloaded 200 rounds of it I shot up then . One of the most nostalgic guns I own , I have 2. 5 shot factory mags and one 10 shot prison mag for it that I had to tweak back into service. One of these hangs on the wall loaded on display high up in my locked room safe area FWIW, pretty sure it is gonna function I use the Hawk 180 Round nose in my reloads with 4227 powder

 

[351 WINCHESTER]

Over the weekend I made it out to the gun range to try a couple new to me guns.

As my usual custom, with nobody else there, I made my rounds looking for brass. I picked up an unfired cartridge, but the lighting was too dim for identification.

When I got home, I checked the headstamp. .351 SLR & JBA. The web search turned up that it is for a .351 Winchester Model 1907 Self Loading rifle.

That got me even more curious. I did more searching. Per Wikipedia, the .351 was poduced from 1907-1957. And that the French military ordered 250,000 of them around WWI, and converted them to automatics. The originals came with a 5 rd. magazine, but the French fitted them with higher capacity magazines.

Never heard of one before now. Anyone else know much about them?
Just a curiosity.

Actually the French ordered 2,500 that were fully automatic as Winchester made them f/a. I have only seen pictures of French mags. and the ones I saw were 15 round.

 

[351 WINCHESTER]

That was the first rifle I worked on when I started my gunsmithing/repair business in the early 70s. The recoil spring surrounds the barrel, inside an outer metal cover that makes the rifle quite muzzle-heavy. On the one I worked on, I removed the nut at the muzzle, but the washer was rusted to the barrel.

Working on our dining room table, I tried several ways to remove it and it finally came off...ballistically...making a crescent-shaped ding in our new, expensive, imported wallpaper. The wife wasn't impressed!!! Gunsmithing work was then relegated to the basement.

Anyway, the rifle shot well and recoil was quite mild. The magazine is internal, as I remember. The receiver is relatively thin and may not take scope mounting...never saw one scoped.

I think you are talking about the Remington 8 & 81, not the Winchester.

 

[351 WINCHESTER]

My affection for the 1907 Winchester started in my youth while learning how to deer hunt. There were 3 men in our party that hunted with these carbines, one was a gunsmith (his was a 3 digit with an ivory inlay in the butstock, the other was a revenuer for the state & the last one was a cattle rancher/orange grove owner. The revenuer had to shoot a range bull which were commonplace in Fl back in the late 60's. He shot him in the head & said he shook it off (guess the bullet glanced off his skull). I wanted one, but they were few and far between. I found a nice one at A.W. Petersons in Mt. Dora, but I had no $$. Finally found a nice one that was a deluxe model with the checkering. I told the owner of the gs to order me some ammo & he found out that Winchester no longer made it (this was back in the 80's). We tested it in ballistic gel. www.brassfeetcher.com (my gun, my ammo). It did as well or better than the 5.56.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

Dillinger was quite fond of the .351.
Never owned one, though Ive seen many nice examples locally for very reasonable prices. Might be tempted by a .401 at some point, because I'm told you can make them from 7.62x39 cases.
Incidentally, I found a nearly full box of .22WSL abandoned at the range last year. Gave them to a fella at the LGS who had had a 1903 for years- he was able to shoot it for the 1st time!

 

[Picher]

I think you are talking about the Remington 8 & 81, not the Winchester.

OOOPS Sorry about that.

 

[kcofohio]

Actually the French ordered 2,500 that were fully automatic as Winchester made them f/a. I have only seen pictures of French mags. and the ones I saw were 15 round.

Thanks for clarifying that. Going back to Wikipedia, and I now see it wasn't there that I had got that info I had posted.

 

[Salmoneye]

I inherited a half dozen or so original rounds of .351 SLR...

Bullet is (I believe) cupro-nickel jacket with exposed lead tip...

I had NO idea that there was a source of currently loaded ammo...

My rounds look like the one in the middle of this pic:

 

[kBob]

351,

So....is AW Petersons still in business? They still keep up the "museum"?

Been wanting to drive through on the way back from Orlando sometime but it is a bit out of the way. Coming up from Orlando there was a section of road that was still the old Florida thump-ka-thump concrete highway (last non bridge bit in the state I think) and I wanted the kids to see that even if they were not thrilled with me going to a gun shop. My daughter at least would enjoy the old houses on the hill at Mt. Dora. I neve have rode the train down there either although some friends have taken part in various costume events. We had hoped to come down for a Steam Punk event but school got in the way.

If I have it right didn't "Carbine" Williams come to the attention of Winchester by converting a 07 to gas operation and reducing the weight using his tappet system? While in prison?

-kBob

 

[351 WINCHESTER]

351,

So....is AW Petersons still in business? They still keep up the "museum"?

Been wanting to drive through on the way back from Orlando sometime but it is a bit out of the way. Coming up from Orlando there was a section of road that was still the old Florida thump-ka-thump concrete highway (last non bridge bit in the state I think) and I wanted the kids to see that even if they were not thrilled with me going to a gun shop. My daughter at least would enjoy the old houses on the hill at Mt. Dora. I neve have rode the train down there either although some friends have taken part in various costume events. We had hoped to come down for a Steam Punk event but school got in the way.

If I have it right didn't "Carbine" Williams come to the attention of Winchester by converting a 07 to gas operation and reducing the weight using his tappet system? While in prison?

-kBob

I don't know if they are still in business. I read sometime ago that they were the oldest gunshop possibly in the United States. The last time I was there was when I was working out of Orlando (ugh) around 1977 or so. I believe "Carbine" Williams

351,

So....is AW Petersons still in business? They still keep up the "museum"?

Been wanting to drive through on the way back from Orlando sometime but it is a bit out of the way. Coming up from Orlando there was a section of road that was still the old Florida thump-ka-thump concrete highway (last non bridge bit in the state I think) and I wanted the kids to see that even if they were not thrilled with me going to a gun shop. My daughter at least would enjoy the old houses on the hill at Mt. Dora. I neve have rode the train down there either although some friends have taken part in various costume events. We had hoped to come down for a Steam Punk event but school got in the way.

If I have it right didn't "Carbine" Williams come to the attention of Winchester by converting a 07 to gas operation and reducing the weight using his tappet system? While in prison?

-kBob

I don't know if they are still in business or not. The last time I was there was when I was working in Orlando (ugh) in the 70's & early 80's. It was an amazing place as I had never seen a gun shop like it no have I since. As far as what gun "Carbine" Williams used - I have always thought that he used a Winchester self loader, possibly a 1905 in .32 WSL, but that is pure speculation on my part. I googled it & can find nothing as to what firearm he used. As a kid I watched the movie & he was using a Remington for the conversion which may be true. Hope fully someone will chime in, and let us know for sure. I do recall reading about the notion of Winchester using the .32 WSL in their carbine, but we all know they make their own, but I suspect they leaned heavily on the .32.

 

[TexasPatriot.308]

My oldest cousin (70) has had one for years, I shot it about 30 years ago, ballistics suck.

 

[kBob]

Isn't the .351 basically a rimless .357 Magnum or I guess given the ages of the cartridges the .357 just a rimmed .351 for all intents as far as ballistics go?

-kBob

 

[351 WINCHESTER]

Isn't the .351 basically a rimless .357 Magnum or I guess given the ages of the cartridges the .357 just a rimmed .351 for all intents as far as ballistics go?

-kBob

It's more potent than a .357. Pressure runs around 40K for the Winchester. Case length is more so it's a notch or two above the .357. Probably closer to the .357 max. although slightly less.

 

[351 WINCHESTER]

My oldest cousin (70) has had one for years, I shot it about 30 years ago, ballistics suck.

Yea, on paper it's not impressive, but you would not want to be on the receiving end of it either. Up close it's performance is on par with 5.56!