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.357 148gr HBWCs

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by Quoheleth, Sep 25, 2008.

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  1. Quoheleth

    Quoheleth Member

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    I found a couple hundred of these bulk Remington HBWCs in my cabinet last week and was thinking about loading them up to shoot. Checking through Lee's manual, there are loads suggested for the three powders I have in the cabinet - Bullseye, Universal and Titegroup. Any of them be better (better means what you want it to mean) than another one for mild target loads?

    One thing I did notice...the Bullseye and Universal loads are much higher pressure (40% more) than the Titegroup load in the "max load" category, so I assume that carries over, more or less, to the starting data. Would the higher pressure start-load be better for the HBWC bullet to seal it? I'm not worried about blowing the center out of the bullet, as I'm using the starting loads and plan to keep these as soft shooting as possible.

    Q
     
  2. ReloaderFred

    ReloaderFred Member

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    Bullseye has been the standard for accuracy with 148 grain HBWC bullets for many, many years. I've shot thousands of them when I was shooting PPC matches regularly.

    Just make sure you don't double charge a case, as it can be catastrophic.

    Hope this helps.

    Fred
     
  3. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    Lee's manual doesn't get very specific about whether or not they are 148 Hollow-base, or 148 solids.

    The solid base WC can be loaded way hotter then the HBWC.

    There is a chance of skirt separation leaving a skirt in the barrel, or forcing cone blow-out if you load HBWC very hot.

    Make absolutely 100% sure you are looking at HBWC load data, and not DEWC or BBWC data!

    rcmodel
     
  4. Quoheleth

    Quoheleth Member

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    Right, that's why I was asking.

    Been warned about that; in fact (and maybe it was even you, remodel) who suggested to me a year ago that I save these until I have had some practice reloading solid bullets, just to avoid that very thing from happening.

    I printed off the various pages from these powder manufacturers; I'll cross-check them for HBWC loads, just to be sure.

    Q
     
  5. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

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    A common target load with the 148 LWC, hollow based or not, was 2.7 grains Bullseye. The bullet was seated deeply in the case with very little of the bullet sticking out. And a light crimp was applied. This load is very accurate and very mild.

    I have shot it in various pistols over the years, I thought the data might give you an idea of the velocities you will get out of different barrels.

    I believe this load was used by the Bulleye shooters used a semiautomatic Smith and Wesson. I don’t remember the model, but got to shoot one. The pistol was set up to shoot this load, and it shot very well. I think it is a collector’s item now.

    I don't consider a 148 LSWC a self defense round, even though I have read articles where people hot loaded the thing and turned the hollow base around. It is at its best as a light target bullet.



    S&W Airweight 2” barrel

    148 LWC 2.7 grs Bullseye thrown Mixed Brass WSP
    18-Mar-07 T = 52 °F
    Ave Vel = 611.6
    Std Dev = 22.04
    ES 75.92
    High 648.1
    Low 572.2
    N = 25

    M66-2 4” barrel

    148gr LBBWC 2.7 grs Bullseye CCI 500 primers
    17-Oct-93 T = 65-70°F
    Ave Vel = 704 fps
    Std Dev = 18
    ES = 57
    High = 742
    Low = 685
    N = 6

    Colt Python , 6" Barrel

    148 gr LBBWC 2.7 grs Bullseye 38 SPL cases CCI500
    24 Sept 1999 T = 78 F
    Ave Vel = 710
    Std Dev = 18
    ES 72.02
    High 746.1
    Low 674
    N = 33
    shot fine at 25 yards, no leading, light recoil
     
  6. dmickey

    dmickey Member

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    The Smith and Wesson semi-automatic is the Model 52. I know, I have one!! :D
     
  7. bluetopper

    bluetopper Member

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    I have a Model 52 too.:) It is a beautiful, shooting machine.;)

    It never sees a hot load. Try 2.8 - 3.0gr of Bullseye
     
  8. joneb

    joneb Member

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    Will you be loading the HBWCs in 38spl or 357mag cases ?
     
  9. Quoheleth

    Quoheleth Member

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    I have a whole pot-wad of .38 cases, so I'll probably go that route.

    Yeah, I know it makes a ring in the chambers of my GP100 & Sp101, but I'll deal with it.

    Q
     
  10. the foot

    the foot Member

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    Bullseye in .38 special cases, light loads, is a great all-around starting point.
     
  11. 20nickels

    20nickels Member

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    Does anybody have a good starting point for Bullseye and target wadcutters in a .357 case? Should I just add 10% powder to the .38 Spl data?
     
  12. dmickey

    dmickey Member

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    Did you ever think of buying two (or more) loading manuals? Speer does list loads for the .357 Magnum and the hollow base wadcutters. You shouldn't depend on the web (except maybe for the bullet and/or powder manufacturers web sites) for loading data. Too many of us with bad memories and even worse typing skills! :)
     
  13. 20nickels

    20nickels Member

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    Okay, so does anybody with a good memory and typing skills know?
     
  14. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator

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    It takes very little pressure to seal those dead soft HBWC's. Almost any sane load will do it.

    Bullseye is a proven winner with HBWC's.

    If you are worried about accidentally double charging Bullseye, try some 700X. It is much bulkier and works great with lead at low pressures and the resulting low velocities of target loads. It is my favorite low pressure powder (.38 Spl, .38 Spl loads in .357 brass, .44 Spl, .45 Colt), although Red Dot and American Select do very well also.

    If you have or can "bum" some 700X from a buddy, give it a try with those HBWC's in .38 or .357 brass. I think you will like the results.

    I can PM you some data if you are interested.
     
  15. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    Speer #10 lists 148 HBWC Starting/Max loads as:

    .357 Case:
    Green Dot = 4.0 - 4.4
    Red Dot = 3.0 - 3.4
    700x = 2.9 - 3.2
    WW231 = 3.4 - 3.8
    Bullseye = 3.0 - 3.3

    .38 Spl. Case, (Revolver loads):
    Red Dot = 2.7 - 3.0
    700x = 2.6 - 2.9
    WW231 = 3.0 - 3.3
    Bullseye = 2.8 - 3.1

    rcmodel
     
  16. Galil5.56

    Galil5.56 Member

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    Sure, this data is from an Alliant manual Circa 1995. First load they list as "Target", the second a pretty snappy SD load.

    148 LWC OAL 1.330 2.8 grains 780 fps 10,000 psi

    148 LWC OAL 1.330 5.7 grains 1,475 fps 34,000 psi

    It does not say what kind of WC, it simply lists "LWC", so if you plan on pushing them much over 800 fps, do not go with a hollow base WC. 800 or so fps and above means a solid WC. I would start at 3 grains for either type, and no way would I get anywhere near their max charge weight. Alliant IMO and experience treats some cast lead/lead bullets too much like jacketed, and their data is too hot. I would think 4 grains as a practical max with a solid WC would fill about any need a WC could do, and if it won't, time for a good 150/158 grain lead SWC.
     
  17. 20nickels

    20nickels Member

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    Tks. I was wanting to get my boolits closer to the rifling to start with instead of always using the 38 Spl cases. I didn't think the loads would be radically different, I just like to bounce things off of the THR Think Tank. This should get me a little more accuracy if I do my part.
     
  18. GP100man

    GP100man Member

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    there`s not much difference in volume in modern 38 spl & 357 mag brass, the mag case head is thicker & i doubt they have different specs for head thickness just for a shorter case .
    some older stuff will be a big difference though.

    GP100man
     
  19. loneviking

    loneviking Member

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    On these HBWC's, does anybody have a picture showing how deep you seat the bullet? Sorry if this sounds dumb, but I keep hearing 'flush'--which to me means 'flat'...and that doesn't sound right. The HBWC's I have are Speers with three rings and I'm guessing you seat to the third ring?

    And then, the crimp is supposed to be a medium. I still don't understand the crimp instructions for the RCBS dies. Can somebody shed some light on how to crimp and what to look for when using the RCBS dies?

    Thanks!
     
  20. dmickey

    dmickey Member

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    For a typical .38 Special revolver, you don't have to worry so much about seating depth. It only has to be seated flush for the semi-automatic pistols chambered for this round, like the Smith & Wesson Model 52. Just load them and shoot them! :)
     
  21. loneviking

    loneviking Member

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    Thanks Dennis, things are becoming a bit clearer. I'm working from a Speer #10, and they list two HBWC's, one with a ballistic coefficient of .050 for which the test loads were fired from a 6" S&W model 14 K-38. The second HWBC had a ballistic coefficient of .052 and this one notes that the bullet has to be seated flush to function in the model 52.

    I guess I'll just seat 'em till' they look right, fire away and see what happens! BTW, I'm using a Colt Peacekeeper .357 with a 6" barrel.
     
  22. chriske

    chriske Member

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    .38 spl + 10 % = .357 Mag

    20nickels :

    This formula has worked perfectly for me as long as I use:
    - lead bullets (148 gr HBWC or DEWC, 158 gr LSWC or LRN)
    - light to medium loads (not over 850 fps)
    - fast powders (Bullseye, Vectan BA10, Vihtavuori N 310, Hodgdon HP 38, Winchester W-231, PCL 531)
     
  23. loneviking

    loneviking Member

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    Thanks! Yeah, I've figured this forumla out, but my problem is that I have a load for the .148's using the .357 cases and Unique. Now, if I could just go backward, but Unique just doesn't burn fast enough. Oh well, now to choose between W-231 and Bullseye....
     
  24. Ala Dan

    Ala Dan Member in memoriam

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    2.7 grains of Bullseye, would be my recommended load for the 148 grain
    HBWC in .38 Special cases. I have NEVER loaded this bullet in a .357
    magnum case; cuz when driven at higher velocities, barrel leading
    becomes a serious problem~! :scrutiny: ;)
     
  25. loneviking

    loneviking Member

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    Thanks Dan. My #10 Speer gives a .357 load of 3.9 gr. of Unique resulting in 950fps. out of a 6 inch S&W. That shouldn't lead too badly, but I'll probably use the .38 loads more.
     
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