sixgunner' - I think what bothered me the most was not the bear's "no fear of humans" behavior, it was the uncertainty of the whole incident and the feeling that I had little, if any, control over it. It was a deep, primal fear of helplessness that I never forgot.
.357 against bears
- Thread starter abrink
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The big variable...
The biggest variable in this never-ending "Is this ((name caliber here)) enough for bear?" is this-the "state" of the bear. In other words, taken by surprize with a well-placed shot or two, many calibers/loads will "work". To stop a foaming-at-the-mouth, adrenaline-stoked bruin, good luck with any handgun (Just as a terrified, adrenaline-soaked deer can absorb tremendous punishment and keep going, while a "shot out of the blue" will stop it in its tracks). While hunting black bear w/ .44 mag handguns, my friends regularly wade right into a pack of dogs fighting a cornered bear and let loose with full cylinders of high-powered loads at point-blank range, often requiring a repeat trip into the foray before the "distracted" bear begins to realize he may be dead. Now, if that bear's attention is focused on YOU instead... Not saying it can't be done but you better know if you truly fear a deadly bear attack you will be under-armed with a handgun, period. Brown bears that have been killed after attacking humans, have been found with multiple close-range revolver rounds that failed to make it through the layer of fat. There is a reason that those serious about bear protection carry hot .45-70, .450, ,375, etc rifles and/or shotguns. Better-than-nothing says it all...unless you only manage to further enrage the bear with a poorly placed shot!
The biggest variable in this never-ending "Is this ((name caliber here)) enough for bear?" is this-the "state" of the bear. In other words, taken by surprize with a well-placed shot or two, many calibers/loads will "work". To stop a foaming-at-the-mouth, adrenaline-stoked bruin, good luck with any handgun (Just as a terrified, adrenaline-soaked deer can absorb tremendous punishment and keep going, while a "shot out of the blue" will stop it in its tracks). While hunting black bear w/ .44 mag handguns, my friends regularly wade right into a pack of dogs fighting a cornered bear and let loose with full cylinders of high-powered loads at point-blank range, often requiring a repeat trip into the foray before the "distracted" bear begins to realize he may be dead. Now, if that bear's attention is focused on YOU instead... Not saying it can't be done but you better know if you truly fear a deadly bear attack you will be under-armed with a handgun, period. Brown bears that have been killed after attacking humans, have been found with multiple close-range revolver rounds that failed to make it through the layer of fat. There is a reason that those serious about bear protection carry hot .45-70, .450, ,375, etc rifles and/or shotguns. Better-than-nothing says it all...unless you only manage to further enrage the bear with a poorly placed shot!
Vern Humphrey
Member
Phil Shoemaker, who is a licensed bear guide, and lives in bear country a looooong way from the nearest town has recommended the .357 with a heavy, hard-cast bullet for bear.
His reasoning is that you have to go for a head shot, and with a .357, you may get two chances to make it before the bear reaches you.
He also points out that the most important thing about the gun is how it affects you. Your best defense is your own body language, deterring the bear by not showing fright or running. The gun can give you the confidence to pull that off.
His reasoning is that you have to go for a head shot, and with a .357, you may get two chances to make it before the bear reaches you.
He also points out that the most important thing about the gun is how it affects you. Your best defense is your own body language, deterring the bear by not showing fright or running. The gun can give you the confidence to pull that off.
MCgunner
Member
Hmm, I bet those 20 rounds of .22 in the cranium would have discouraged that bear. 
A .357 will be fine for Black Bear, I carry a .45 in the north country of Mi and I'm not the least bit worried that it won't do the job in a self defense situation. However, If your in Grizzly country, I would want something much bigger. I think I would start with .454! I fished Katmai is Alaska last summer and those creatures are big, plus there's lots of them. Saw 13 in one day.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Phil Shoemaker says different -- his reasoning is a brain shot is needed to stop a charging grizzley with a handgun, and a .357 will give you the possibility of a second shot if the first misses.
Ruger1280
Member
Messin' with Bears.
I have never dealt with the Bear Problem - but I do know people who have, some of these guys on more than one ocassion. To a nose they have said that when you are dealing with a bear that is focused on you - completely forget about killing it. What you want to do is convince the bear that it really isn't interested in you anymore. These hunters have said that good loads in 475's and 50's, and pretty stiff loads in .44's and /.45's are more than likely what you would want.
I'm thinkin' that the .357 and the standard auto pistol cartridges might just put the critter in a deeper crankier mood than when you started.
Again - I personally don't know, but I fully trust my source of this information. It is advice I would certainly follow.
Dave
I have never dealt with the Bear Problem - but I do know people who have, some of these guys on more than one ocassion. To a nose they have said that when you are dealing with a bear that is focused on you - completely forget about killing it. What you want to do is convince the bear that it really isn't interested in you anymore. These hunters have said that good loads in 475's and 50's, and pretty stiff loads in .44's and /.45's are more than likely what you would want.
I'm thinkin' that the .357 and the standard auto pistol cartridges might just put the critter in a deeper crankier mood than when you started.
Again - I personally don't know, but I fully trust my source of this information. It is advice I would certainly follow.
Dave
give
Member
are these places you talking about state parks?dident know it was legal to carry there
MCgunner
Member
I've ridden without a clutch quite a ways before. LIttle tough on the gear dogs, but can be done. Gotta push it, get it rolling to jam into first, though. Just stick your left hand out for an appetizer and shoot with the right.
Confederate
Member
I heard another story about a black bear attack this morning. Didn't catch where it happened or what happened, but I did note it.
Most times people with .357s do okay against black bears. If it's a grizzley, well, it can go either way with the bear having a slight edge. If it's a Kodiak, just make sure you shoot yourself with the first shot!
Most times people with .357s do okay against black bears. If it's a grizzley, well, it can go either way with the bear having a slight edge. If it's a Kodiak, just make sure you shoot yourself with the first shot!
It's legal to carry in a state park if your state says so. That's the state's right to set the laws. In WA, it certainly is. It is also legal to carry in National Forests if your state allows park carry (the federal land follows state laws). It is NOT legal to carry in any National Park. That will be changing soon as the DOI is in the process of public commentary on new laws to allow National Park carry in states where the state the park is in allows park/public land carry.
I steer my off-road trips in WA towards National Forests and state parks, since I can defend myself. Once the laws are changed, then national Parks will get more of my time, too. There are grizzlies here and it's not worth the risk.
22-rimfire
Member
I think the 357 mag revolver with heavy solids is just fine for black bear protection. If the bear is set on eating you, you will be hard pressed to defend yourself, so you have to be real careful and respect their comfort distance if possible.
DMZ, I bet you would have felt a lot better with a 357. Like you, I more than likely would have had a 22LR with me as I like to plink with them and I'm not likely to plink with a larger caliber handgun in the woods.
If I were buying a gun specifically for black bear protection, I'd get either a 44 or 41 mag which can be handled with a bit of practice by most folks that shoot revolvers. I have a Smith Mountain Gun in 41 mag and would load it with 250 gr solids as my choice. If I had your experience, I'd probably get a larger gun just to make myself feel like I had a fighting chance. I have had one encounter that scared the p*** out of me, so I know how it feels. Big guns are heavy though.
DMZ, I bet you would have felt a lot better with a 357. Like you, I more than likely would have had a 22LR with me as I like to plink with them and I'm not likely to plink with a larger caliber handgun in the woods.
If I were buying a gun specifically for black bear protection, I'd get either a 44 or 41 mag which can be handled with a bit of practice by most folks that shoot revolvers. I have a Smith Mountain Gun in 41 mag and would load it with 250 gr solids as my choice. If I had your experience, I'd probably get a larger gun just to make myself feel like I had a fighting chance. I have had one encounter that scared the p*** out of me, so I know how it feels. Big guns are heavy though.
mewachee
Member
I say yes for hunting, no for defense.
I have not killed a bear with a handgun. However, I spend a lot of time in grizzly country and I have put a lot of time into studying this subject out. In Lewis and Clark's first encounter with a grizzly, they shot the bear multiple times before it died. When they cut the bear open, they found (If my memory is right) 8 lead balls in the heart. They don't just decide to give up the fight.
I don't care if it is a grizzly, a black bear or a moose, if it is charging you have less than a second to kill it dead. This is the real issue. I could kill a bear with a stick, if I was in a cage while it attacked. Maybe the better question is, do I have time to kill a bear with a .357, while it is charging.
An angry bear runs to danger. A lot of the response you get here don't take into account the fact that an animal doesn't know what has just happened to them when they have been shot. These wounds don't feel much different that a bad flesh wound (This is an assumption). They also don't understand how a human can reach out and touch them with arrows and bullets. So, if they don't know where it came from, they run. Now, if you hurt them, and they think it was you, then everything now changes.
No matter the caliber, I say hard cast lead or equivalent. Also, I think you should confidently be able accurately shoot at least two rounds in a very short amount of time. I don't care was people say, energy matters when you are trying to crack a bear skull.
I have not killed a bear with a handgun. However, I spend a lot of time in grizzly country and I have put a lot of time into studying this subject out. In Lewis and Clark's first encounter with a grizzly, they shot the bear multiple times before it died. When they cut the bear open, they found (If my memory is right) 8 lead balls in the heart. They don't just decide to give up the fight.
I don't care if it is a grizzly, a black bear or a moose, if it is charging you have less than a second to kill it dead. This is the real issue. I could kill a bear with a stick, if I was in a cage while it attacked. Maybe the better question is, do I have time to kill a bear with a .357, while it is charging.
An angry bear runs to danger. A lot of the response you get here don't take into account the fact that an animal doesn't know what has just happened to them when they have been shot. These wounds don't feel much different that a bad flesh wound (This is an assumption). They also don't understand how a human can reach out and touch them with arrows and bullets. So, if they don't know where it came from, they run. Now, if you hurt them, and they think it was you, then everything now changes.
No matter the caliber, I say hard cast lead or equivalent. Also, I think you should confidently be able accurately shoot at least two rounds in a very short amount of time. I don't care was people say, energy matters when you are trying to crack a bear skull.
mewachee
Member
Vern, this is different with blacks vs browns. With blacks you show aggression and size. With browns, if you show aggression, you better kill it quick. It has been said time and again, if you are mauled buy a grizzly/brown, take it and play dead. Fighting back or running will only encourage them.
Benelli Shooter
Member
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You stand more of a chance of being attacked by 10 naked supermodels in the woods that want your hot body than a bear.
Guillermo
member
There have been 24 fatal bear attacks in North America since 2000. This does not include the attacks survived by the human.
Please tell us Benelli, where are the naked supermodel attacks taking place. I want to move there!
Please tell us Benelli, where are the naked supermodel attacks taking place. I want to move there!
The thing about a bear attack is it happens very quick, most would not be able to react. A second shot is not going to happen in a split second, you better make your first one count and make it the biggest hole you can and get the best penetration you can.
I too also want to know where those 10 naked super models are, because that is where I am booking my next bear hunt too.
I too also want to know where those 10 naked super models are, because that is where I am booking my next bear hunt too.
Guillermo
member
Redhawk,
Are you going bear hunting or bare hunting?
Are you going bear hunting or bare hunting?
Here is another bear story
In the late 1970's I worked as a seasonal for the North Cascades National Park. One of my responsibilities was to drive a shuttle van through the park to take hikers to trailheads and campgrounds. The park had several campgrounds that black bears visited every so often so we had installed ropes and pulleys for people to pull their gear up to a cable, ~15 high, that was strung between a couple of trees (this was before the bear proof steel conex's the NPS now uses in "bear" parks.
One day I was loading back packs into the overhead rack of my shuttle when I 40ish guy hands me his pack and wants me to wrap it in a blanket so it would not get ripped or snagged by the rack. Now judging from his pack and his dress he looked like the had walked into a REI and told them to sell him everything he needed to go hiking and camping in the back country.
I told him that in all the time I had been shuttling people and gear into the park, I had never damaged a pack. But he got nasty and said he would sue the park if his pack got tore, so I sent for a horse blanket from the tack room and wrapped his $250 North Face pack so as not to tear it. It made me late and torqued me off a bit.
So anyway, I dropped this guy off at the end of the 28 mile dirt/rock road, at a campground that we had a problem bear. I gave everyone the mandatory talk on bear safety, food prep and the need to secure their packs in the air before they turned in for the night. I always emphasized that you should never take your pack or any food item into your tent. With that, I left.
The next day, I made the morning run up the valley and everything seemed fine at all the campgrounds along the way. I got to the end of the road and saw the guy with the "pack" sitting at a picnic table eating a small can of beanyweenie with his fingers. The first thing he said to me was that he spent the night in the small outdoor toilet. The second thing he said was that he was going to sue the park.
Upon further conversation, it seems that he had disregarded my firm instructions and taken his pack into his tent for the night, After dark a very large brown bear had came into his tent, through the huge rent one swipe of a paw had made and came in for the goodies.
The guy retreated to the toilet and watched as the bear tore his tent to shreds. It took his pack in mouth and walked up into the woods, leaving only a can of beenieweeie behind. I found his shredded pack and mangled frame about 200' away and brought it down to him to snatch out of my hands. Ok. The entire trip back to park headquarters he was silent, which was worked for me and the riders I picked up. I pointed him to the head Rangers office when we arrived.
A few days later, we tranquilized that bear with a 180 softpoint and relocated him to the park landfill to put in a deep hole that the maintenance guy had dug with a backhoe
In the late 1970's I worked as a seasonal for the North Cascades National Park. One of my responsibilities was to drive a shuttle van through the park to take hikers to trailheads and campgrounds. The park had several campgrounds that black bears visited every so often so we had installed ropes and pulleys for people to pull their gear up to a cable, ~15 high, that was strung between a couple of trees (this was before the bear proof steel conex's the NPS now uses in "bear" parks.
One day I was loading back packs into the overhead rack of my shuttle when I 40ish guy hands me his pack and wants me to wrap it in a blanket so it would not get ripped or snagged by the rack. Now judging from his pack and his dress he looked like the had walked into a REI and told them to sell him everything he needed to go hiking and camping in the back country.
I told him that in all the time I had been shuttling people and gear into the park, I had never damaged a pack. But he got nasty and said he would sue the park if his pack got tore, so I sent for a horse blanket from the tack room and wrapped his $250 North Face pack so as not to tear it. It made me late and torqued me off a bit.
So anyway, I dropped this guy off at the end of the 28 mile dirt/rock road, at a campground that we had a problem bear. I gave everyone the mandatory talk on bear safety, food prep and the need to secure their packs in the air before they turned in for the night. I always emphasized that you should never take your pack or any food item into your tent. With that, I left.
The next day, I made the morning run up the valley and everything seemed fine at all the campgrounds along the way. I got to the end of the road and saw the guy with the "pack" sitting at a picnic table eating a small can of beanyweenie with his fingers. The first thing he said to me was that he spent the night in the small outdoor toilet. The second thing he said was that he was going to sue the park.
Upon further conversation, it seems that he had disregarded my firm instructions and taken his pack into his tent for the night, After dark a very large brown bear had came into his tent, through the huge rent one swipe of a paw had made and came in for the goodies.
The guy retreated to the toilet and watched as the bear tore his tent to shreds. It took his pack in mouth and walked up into the woods, leaving only a can of beenieweeie behind. I found his shredded pack and mangled frame about 200' away and brought it down to him to snatch out of my hands. Ok. The entire trip back to park headquarters he was silent, which was worked for me and the riders I picked up. I pointed him to the head Rangers office when we arrived. A few days later, we tranquilized that bear with a 180 softpoint and relocated him to the park landfill to put in a deep hole that the maintenance guy had dug with a backhoe
.357 against Black Bear = fine
.357 against Gizz... = I would only do so if I had nothing else and I would try to make sure I had something else. Certainly wouldn't recommend it.
Every rule has some exceptions, but don't let the exceptions get you killed.
.357 against Gizz... = I would only do so if I had nothing else and I would try to make sure I had something else. Certainly wouldn't recommend it.
Every rule has some exceptions, but don't let the exceptions get you killed.
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