357 Ammo

[golden]

GEO,

I do not have an ox to gore. I am looking for the most effective ammo to use for self defense and do not see anything in these studies that shows superior wounding compared to hollow points. The Air Force did studies that showed flat pointed bullets were superior compared to simple ball ammo, but never adopted ammo of that design. No law enforcement agency besides NYPD used them either. NYPD found they were no more effective than lead round nose.

Neither study addresses one of the concerns I mentioned, that of over penetration. One of the advantages of the hollow point design is that it SHOULD NOT PENETRATE DEEPLY ENOUGH to over penetrate. It dumps all the energy in the target and not down the street behind the target. Heavy, non expanding bullets are not likely to dump all their energy inside the target, but will usually go through it.

Also, based on the logic of a wide meplat, should not the best man stopper be full wad cutter design?

Jim

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

GEO,

I do not have an ox to gore. I am looking for the most effective ammo to use for self defense and do not see anything in these studies that shows superior wounding compared to hollow points. The Air Force did studies that showed flat pointed bullets were superior compared to simple ball ammo, but never adopted ammo of that design. No law enforcement agency besides NYPD used them either. NYPD found they were no more effective than lead round nose.

Neither study addresses one of the concerns I mentioned, that of over penetration. One of the advantages of the hollow point design is that it SHOULD NOT PENETRATE DEEPLY ENOUGH to over penetrate. It dumps all the energy in the target and not down the street behind the target. Heavy, non expanding bullets are not likely to dump all their energy inside the target, but will usually go through it.

Also, based on the logic of a wide meplat, should not the best man stopper be full wad cutter design?

Jim

Okie dokey. Just thought it was interesting material. Thanks for taking it personally.

 

[TFLT]

To the OP, when I was hired the issued round was 158 gr. SWC, then came NYCLAD SWC, NYCLAD HP (a great round that's often disparaged), Then various 9MM loadings until Gold Dot became the standard. During this time the 135 gr. 38 Gold Dot came for those still carrying revolvers. In my 20 I've stood over literally 100's of dummies shot in the street. Many dead, many hurt bad, and a few still fighting. Even the dummies still fighting weren't quite so full of piss and vinegar anymore. The point is whether it's a .22 fired from a Raven or a .45 from a Colt, if you get one into the "boiler room" of your opponent your doing pretty good, and can now take cover, run, call for help, or whatever "your" situation calls for. I'm now retired, live on a big farm, with a nice range and have the opportunity to shoot a lot, I've been a reloader for many years and tailor my carry ammo based on the season. Here in snow country my preferred winter loading is a stout charge of H110 below a hard cast 158 gr. SWC. This bullet leaves my S&W 640 pro series at 1100 FPS, the lead bullet generates significantly less pressure then the Hornady XTP I would carry otherwise, but to me the combination of power, accuracy and controlability makes it a winner. In the summer I usually carry a 125 gr. XTP on top of enough Tite-Group to push 1000 fps over the chrono.
Find the ammo you shoot best with, practice a lot, and feel confident in the skills you develop. The most important thing is hitting the target.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

To the OP, when I was hired the issued round was 158 gr. SWC, then came NYCLAD SWC, NYCLAD HP (a great round that's often disparaged), Then various 9MM loadings until Gold Dot became the standard. During this time the 135 gr. 38 Gold Dot came for those still carrying revolvers. In my 20 I've stood over literally 100's of dummies shot in the street. Many dead, many hurt bad, and a few still fighting. Even the dummies still fighting weren't quite so full of piss and vinegar anymore. The point is whether it's a .22 fired from a Raven or a .45 from a Colt, if you get one into the "boiler room" of your opponent your doing pretty good, and can now take cover, run, call for help, or whatever "your" situation calls for. I'm now retired, live on a big farm, with a nice range and have the opportunity to shoot a lot, I've been a reloader for many years and tailor my carry ammo based on the season. Here in snow country my preferred winter loading is a stout charge of H110 below a hard cast 158 gr. SWC. This bullet leaves my S&W 640 pro series at 1100 FPS, the lead bullet generates significantly less pressure then the Hornady XTP I would carry otherwise, but to me the combination of power, accuracy and controlability makes it a winner. In the summer I usually carry a 125 gr. XTP on top of enough Tite-Group to push 1000 fps over the chrono.
Find the ammo you shoot best with, practice a lot, and feel confident in the skills you develop. The most important thing is hitting the target.

Great summation. Good advice. My woods and walking loads tend to be a heavy .38. The Valiant “Keith type” 158 LSWC load I sometimes like to carry hunting leaves my 4” Colt Lawman at around 850fps. At 5 yards it’s enough punch to take down a big hog in my experience. I have serious doubts it might exit a man’s bread basket carrying enough energy to seriously injure a bystander. Now, the thing is, I also seriously doubt any commercial “self-defense” ammo will not exit an arm, shoulder, neck or leg shot carrying lethal energy. I pretty much know it will. I try never to assume my every shot will be perfect. Check your area, check your situational awareness.

 

[Palladan44]

Most of the defensive "personal protection" 357 ammo that's out there IS loaded with shorter barrels in mind. Some will even put "short barrels" on the box. Interestingly enough, the velocities advertised are using a longer barrel so the ammo doesn't look "whimpy" or "slow" on paper..... that's another story.

I'm of the opinion that a 125gr bullet going 1,150fps. Or a 158 gr bullet going 1,000 fps. is very adequate for personal protection. It will get reliable expansion, and be controllable for quicker shooting. If you're lucky, lighter to medium loads also will probably have less muzzle flash than heavier 357 magnum loads (regardless of whether flash suppressant is used in the powder) Noise will be about on Par with a full powered 40 s&w.

Firing any handgun without ear protection is absolutely no joke, especially in a confined space, permanent ear damage can occur with any firearm fired without ear protection.
A snubby 357 magnum with full powered magnum loads will almost GUARANTEE that you, the lawful defender, will have permanent hearing damage if you ever needed to use it. They are right up there with SBSs, 5.56 or AK pistols, and 7mm REM magnums with BOSS compensators on them with you sitting next to it.....
There's loud, then there's INSANE.....and I try to avoid the INSANE options for any defensive weapons.