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.357 lever action rifle vs M1 .30 Carbine?

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by DavidB2, Jun 4, 2012.

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  1. DavidB2

    DavidB2 Member

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    If chosing a backup rifle to hunt deer; especially close range 50 -80 yards shots; which rifle (.357 or M1 Carbine) would you chose? I personally think the .357 would be more effective; but am interested in your feedback. I am debating on purchasing either of these rifles; and appreciate suggestions.
     
  2. Jason_W

    Jason_W Member

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    In terms of terminal performance, the .357 rifle wins. With proper handloads, you can get a 158 grain bullet traveling close to 1900 f/s at the muzzle and a 180 grain bullet close to 1800. 125 grain bullets will break 2k.

    Both guns will be close to medium range propositions.
     
  3. scotjute

    scotjute Member

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    My father for a while carried a scoped M-1 carbine in truck for deer when he was raising watermelons commercially. He quit using it after a while as nearly every deer shot required long tracking or else they disappeared tho shot.
    .357 has heavier and bigger diameter bullet. Several people on forums have described it as satisfactory on deer when used inside of 100 yds.
     
  4. Husker_Fan

    Husker_Fan Member

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    I love the M1 Carbine, but I'd go with a .357 lever gun (if legal). The differences in ballistics don't phase me, but the terminal performance will be better with a .357. The M1 is really limited in bullet selection and I'd prefer a good hunting design like a heavy XTP.

    That said, I love the M1 with soft points for HD and it is the funnest plinking gun I've shot.
     
  5. DavidB2

    DavidB2 Member

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    Plainfield M1

    The local gun store has a Plainfield M1 in great condition at $475. Not sure how great a deal that is.

    I can get a new Rossi M92 .357 20 inch barrel for $430. Choices, choices.
     
  6. MCgunner

    MCgunner Member

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    Love the .357 in a carbine. To 100 yards, proper load, it'll do anything a .30-30 will do. I would NOT hunt with an M1 Carbine, cruel to animals.

    I've owned a Rossi 92 for 25 years. I haven't hunted with it, much, but did shoot a doe at 80 yards with it, only went about 25 yards with a great blood trail, shot with a gas checked bullet weighing 165 grains and clocking over 1800 fps. I can load that bullet up to 1900 with Li'l Gun, great powder for the 20" carbine barrel, but I load it a little shy of that 16.8 grain charge, clocks about 1850.
     
  7. bannockburn

    bannockburn Member

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    Given the choice between the two guns I would also go with a .357 lever action over an M1 Carbine. The Plainfield M1 Carbine was a later commercial copy of the military issue M1 Carbine and as such not all parts are interchangeable.
     
  8. 303tom

    303tom member

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    Ballistically they are the same, .357 mag 125gr. bullet around 2000 fps & a 1000 ft. lbs. energy. The .30 carbine 110gr. bullet around 2000 fps & a 1000 ft. lbs. energy, but the .357 mag. makes a bigger hole & wound track..........
     
  9. MCgunner

    MCgunner Member

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    You under estimate the .357 by a few hundred ft lbs. But, at 100 yards, my load is making about 700 ft lbs as calculated by a ballistics program using a conservatively estimated BC for the bullet, still kills quite dead at that range. Think about that, my hottest load in my Ruger 6.5" blackhawk makes 785 ft lbs muzzle energy and I've killed hogs quite dead at 60 yards with it. The rifle is making nearly as much energy at 100 yards as the handgun at the muzzle. It's got a big, flat 165 grain lead bullet that fully penetrates and cuts a nice round hole while giving about 3" diameter of visual tissue damage. That's based on the one I shot at 80 yards. The wound channel impressed me. It was a lung shot, heart was not touched.

    An advantage of the .357 is the fact that you can use those heavy, flat pointed Keith style SWCs or if you just HAVE to have a hollowpoint, load a 180 XTP in front of an appropriate amount of Li'l Gun, haven't worked that load up as I like my cast bullets in the caliber.

    I would NOT use a 125 grain JHP on deer. I'd worry about enough penetration. I don't even use 125s for self defense in revolvers, hard on the gun and generally not as accurate as a Speer 140 JHP, or at least I've yet to find the 125 grain bullet that can match a Speer 140JHP's accuracy. If 125 grain stuff stopped production, wouldn't break my heart. :D

    For hunting, the M1 Carbine round simply is NOT appropriate for deer sized game.

    http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=100

    5. 18.5 inch Marlin 1894

    a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard Cast = 1851 fps
    b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC = 1860 fps
    c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 2153 fps---- Can you believe this?!!!
    d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 2298 fps---- Or this?!!!

    Note, energy of load C 158 grain JHP is 1626 ft lbs. My handload using a 165 grain bullet at 1850 is 1253 ft lbs.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2012
  10. USSR

    USSR Member

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    Ain't one gonna kill something that the other won't as well. Pick the rifle that you feel comfortable with.

    Don
     
  11. MCgunner

    MCgunner Member

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    So, Don, would .22 short be a good deer caliber? :rolleyes: Just use the rifle you're comfortable with?

    There was a company converting the M1 Carbines into something like .44 mag or maybe it was .45 Wiley mag or something, can't remember. I don't think they're around anymore.
     
  12. Old judge creek

    Old judge creek Member

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    I'd take the 357 magnum over the 30 M1 Carbine every time.
     
  13. Owen Sparks

    Owen Sparks member

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    The .357 is the best choice simply because of the wide variety of expanding bullets suitable for hunting.
     
  14. greyling22

    greyling22 Member

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    357 is a better hunting round, and a 44mag even better. and a 30/30 may be best.

    that said, my grandfather killed quite a few deer with the m1 carbine and a jhp. Now deer here in east tx are small. He shot squirrels with fmj.

    the lever gun will be more versatile and possibly more fun than an m1. ammo's probably cheaper too.
     
  15. SwissArmyDad

    SwissArmyDad Member

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    Respectfully, I think Don meant, between the two rifles mentioned "choose the one you're comfortable with", as they're balistically very similar.

    I don't think he was advocating that the OP choose ANY rifle he/she is comfortable with
    like the .22 you mentioned.

    For me, it'd be neither. If I needed a handy ranch rifle other than my AR, I'd go with a .30-30 marlin. The rounds are a bit more expensive, but with a good peep sight, or 1-4x scout mount scope and good ammo, it'll hit a deer like thor's hammer out to about 150-200 yards. Same price range for a nicely patina'd used model.

    my .3 cents. :)
     
  16. DavidB2

    DavidB2 Member

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    .308 and .243 as primary rifles

    I have a .308 and .243 as my primary deer rifles. I only want something else as a backup that will also be a fun plinker.
     
  17. USSR

    USSR Member

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    Thank you SwissArmyDad, for your defense of the intent of my statement from what was obviously a cheap shot.

    Don
     
  18. SwissArmyDad

    SwissArmyDad Member

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    haha, sounds more like a backup to your backup! Those two are good deer medicine. :)

    Might you consider an AR15? I know they're not everyone's cup of tea, but a 5.56 with good ammo is a pretty good stopper, and certainly very fun for plinking...

    You could spend a few hundred more, and pick up a .22LR conversion kit with bolt and magazines.
     
  19. MCgunner

    MCgunner Member

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    Okay, but I don't consider either a .22 rimfire OR a .30 Carbine appropriate for even small east Texas deer. BETWEEN THE TWO, the .357 magnum is capable, nearly as capable as a 30-30 to 100 yards. The .30 Carbine is too much for small game and too little for medium game. And, if you don't handload, ammo isn't as affordable as either .357 or .22. If you DO handload, good luck policing your brass.

    Truth be told, I don't hunt with my .357 carbine much at all. I've shot ONE deer in 25 years and some small game with it using a 105 SWC in .38 brass at 900 fps MV which is 1.5" at 50 yards accurate. That's really what I like about the gun, its versatility. It's ready for anything. :D

    I mostly use one of my hunting rifles for deer, .257 Roberts, .308 Winchester, or 7mm Rem Mag. But, lately, I've been hunting with a .50 cal black powder inline. I've hunted a lot with handguns, and I'm going to add my bow to the list, I hope soon. :D I just kinda bored of shooting deer with high powdered rifles.

    I also have a couple of SKSs, they make GREAT knock about guns, though a lever gun is lighter. My Rifle is set up with a 5 round mag which doesn't protrude like the 10 rounder and makes the gun a lot nicer to handle in the field.

    There's just something about a lever gun, though, flat action, easy to grab right at the balance point, be it a Marlin .30-30 or .357 carbine. The ONE thing I don't like about my .357 carbine when I use it as a truck or knock about gun is the fact that I have to jack each round out of the magazine when I get back to the truck. I usually just load 3 or four rounds in it so that isn't as much a hassle. The SKS, I can just dump the mag from the floor plate. :D

    Other than the fact that it's a little heavier, the SKS is just as handy set up the way mine is as is a M1 Carbine, 154 Wolf soft point is CHEAP for it, and it's a semi auto in a more appropriate hunting caliber, short range for sure, but good to as far as a .30-30. They ain't that accurate, but mine'll shoot the 154 Wolf to 2.5" at 100 yards. That's good 'nuf for a truck gun. I had a scope on it, but I took that off. Just seemed stupid to hunt with it when I have better, more accurate rifles. Makes a better truck gun the way it is.

    Just some ideas and opinions and experiences. SKSs aren't the bargain they were in the early 90s when I got my rifle for 75 bucks. Man, that was a DEAL! :D The thing has been awesome in its various rolls over the years.

    Here's the SKS rifle with the scope on it. That scope's on my CVA Wolf now. :D Ammo has gone up, but it's still cheaper to plink with and makes a better backup deer gun IMHO. Surplus FMJ has gone up, but it's still south of what .357 or even .38 can cost. I went crazy ordering the Norinco stuff in the day, 80 bucks a thousand back then. I still have over 1000 rounds of it left.

    tasrba.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2012
  20. SwissArmyDad

    SwissArmyDad Member

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    Nah, no worries, McGunner just misunderstood, I think.

    Sometimes our fingers type faster than our brains process. Me included..hahah. :D
     
  21. A Pause for the Coz

    A Pause for the Coz Member

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    I would choose the 357 mag. Actually I used my Rossi M92 this year. One thing to bear in mind though regarding the New Rossi's. The 16 in barreled carbines have a 1 in 30 twist rate. Having a real real hard time stabilizing any 158 gr and heavier bullets past 50 yards.
    The Marlin 357 would be a better choice for shooting heavies.
     
  22. USSR

    USSR Member

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    Well, you are more confident than I am.;)

    Quote:
    between the two rifles mentioned

    MCgunner,

    Deer aren't hard to kill. Our deer up North here run quite a bit bigger than Texas whitetails, but I have killed 2 with a .357 Magnum and 1 last year with a .45 Colt. A .30 Carbine 110gr softpoint within say 50 yards will easily anchor a whitetail with a good heart/lung shot.

    Don
     
  23. ECVMatt

    ECVMatt Member

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    I really love the M1 Carbine, but would pick a .357 over it for hunting. I just shot a nice 150 hog with my Win 94 .357 a few months ago and it worked great. It was a close shot, but dropped instantly. The .357 has such a great selection of ammo and gets even better if you handload. I found a load that works well in my Blackhawk and Winchester so my ammo can be used in either. I am very pleased with it.
     
  24. Texan Scott

    Texan Scott Member

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    ballistics? meh.... close enough not to be my first concern. if these are your choices, go for the .357 for availabilty and variety of ammo, as well as interchangability with a good revolver. shoot deer and smallish (or biggish, if you can manage it) pigs, put them in the freezer, laugh at the naysayers over meatloaf the rest of the year.
     
  25. Nullcone

    Nullcone Member

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    I used to think that unless it bruised your shoulder or made your hands bleed, it wasn't powerful enough. Now, not so much.

    Miscellaneous Ramblings:

    How often has your main gun gone down? Ever?

    Bullet quality/selection/performance will be better in .357 (yeah I know about the Barnes .30s). Ballistic performance likewise.

    I wouldn't feel outclassed armed with an appropriately loaded .30 carbine against a small to medium sized deer at 75 yards.

    They're still making .357 levers; they aren't making new .30 carbines.

    Buy what you like, pick your shots accordingly.
     
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