.357 Mag vs. .41 Mag

[MCgunner]

Funny, if hollow points don't expand, how come .22 LR hollowpoints tear up a squirrel so bad when a solid won't? Ever see the hollow cavity on a .22 lr? Not exactly huge, yet they work. They work really too well for squirrels. I prefer solids for squirrel hunting.

If the tiny hollowpoint on a .22 expands, I don't see how a .357 magnum 125 grain JHP would have much of a problem. In fact, I've seen what the exit wound of a .357 magnum 140 grain Speer JHP did to a javelina and the exit wound suggested expansion big time. That javelina was a big boar, but probably only went about 60 lbs. They ain't big critters. The deer I've shot with a .357 have been with 158 grain cast SWC.

 

[Headless]

a standard velocity .22 LR is 1100+ fps...the aguilla higher velocity rounds i tried were supposed to run you 1600fps+...those would surely mushroom just fine

 

[22-rimfire]

I added some information that maybe some of you have not seen on bullets in my previous posting. Yes, hollow points expand at higher velocities. The squirrel example was probably from a rifle not a handgun.

Sorry about the edits, as I took out the non-expanding comments prior to seeing that others had posted after me.

 

[MCgunner]

Yeah, the .22 example is a rifle, but velocity out of a rifle isn't but around 1300 fps or so. Stingers might be a little higher, but they didn't make stingers when I was in the woods everyday after bushy tails as a kid. I was using Remington/Winchester etc. generic 38 grain hollowpoint high velocity.

 

[bigmike45]

I've been hunting and just generally shooting my 41 magnum revolvers for some 25 years now. I have tried just about every revolver caliber out there and some in several different guns. The 41 magnum just suits my needs to a tee. It has a very flat trajectory. It does not have the kick of the 44 magnum, but outpowers the 357 magnum as a hunting revolver. Handloading really showcases the capability of this fine caliber. I have worked up a load, using the Hornady XTP bullet, using Hogdon H-110 powder that does expand quite well, reliably, does not over penetrate the animals body yet knocks him down like he was hit by a truck. Let the naysayers have their say...I can tell you from many years of personal hunting and shooting experience, my Redhawk does the job and will continue to do the job, without wrenching my hand or or massive muzzle flip.

I don't shoot past 100 yards with my scoped Redhawk and I can guarantee within it's range, the 41 magnum is up to the task.

tex

 

[jad0110]

Depending on whether or not you handload and in what part of the country you live in, the 357 is probably the better choice, simply because of ammo availability. 41 Mag is pretty rare in my neck of the woods, and when I do see it, it is gawd awful expensive .

If I was going to own guns chambered for rounds like 41 and 44 Mag, and 45 Long Colt, I would most definitely be handloading them.

 

[.38 Special]

Bear in mind that when Keith and Jordan were stumping for the .41, the defensive bullet of choice was a semiwadcutter. I have no doubt that a .41 210 SWC is a more effective stopper than a .357 158 SWC.

Fast forward to 2006 and it's a moot point, as no one is using SWCs for defense. The best evidence available shows that the .357 125 grain JHP is a superior manstopper compared to anything in a .41 or .44 magnum. And it is indeed an "energy dump" issue. The same effect can be demonstrated by lungshooting a whitetail with a .375 H&H. Eventually the deer will fall, but no sooner -- and likely more slowly -- than if you'd used a light bullet in a .30-06.

Now, my only question is whether it is possible to design a light and relatively fragile bullet for the .41 and .44 that would have as devestating an effect in human tissue as the .357/125. This approach makes sense to me, except for the fact that the .41/.44 recoil too much for most folks to handle well under stress and rapid fire, and the fact that the N frames are too big for most folks to easily conceal. Were I a bullet manufacturer, I wouldn't throw much money at developing a self defense bullet for a cartridge nobody uses for self defense.

 

[.38 Special]

P.S. -- though I dearly love the .41 Magnum, I would never buy one if I wasn't a handloader. It's a do-it-yourself proposition from start to finish, as far as I am concerned.

 

[lesjones]

The .41 gives you more energy, which could be handy for hunting. Then again, the .44 (.429) gives you even more energy and more choices in guns and ammo.

For self-defense, the .357 wins. There are many more ammo choices, and many more choices in guns that are handy to carry. The .41 is strictly an N frame. The .357 is J, K, L, and N frame.

 

[22-rimfire]

As my original post suggested, I also would choose the 357 mag for its superior self defensive capabilities and not a 41 mag. I generally use a 38spl+P revolver for self defense or a 40 S&W pistol. I generally don't want the recoil, blast, and penetration that the 357 gives. I also love the 41 mag caliber. Ammunition is not so difficult to buy around my neck of the woods and it is usually priced the same as 44 mag ammo. Wally World of course does not carry it though nor is there a "white box" grade.

If you have never seen that thread at the S&W forum, you ought to read some to the things the guy from Atlanta said. It was in part a reaction to people using 25 ACP, 380's, and 9mm for self defense. He trys to tell folks about what he has actually observed in terms of tissue damage.

 

[Jim March]

Modern 357Mag defensive ammo from any reputable ammo house will expand in a human more often than not.

The only exceptions I'm aware of involve 158gr rounds fired out of short barrels. And even those aren't all THAT bad.

------

As to that very long series of reports posted by the coroner on what he's seen, there are reasons to take that data with a grain of salt.

See, most shootings in the US are committed by bad buys. It's a fact. There are even more defensive uses of handguns, but most of those (vast majority, definitely up past 4/5ths) don't involve shots fired.

Bad guys are idiots, more or less by definition. They very, VERY seldom shop for quality ammo. They'll sometimes get ahold of Cor-Bon or Gold Dot or whatever but it's because somebody stole the ammo with the gun.

Police on the other hand do tend to use decent fodder. But since they've transitioned to 9mm and 40S&W to such a high degree, those of us "regular Joes" shooting magnum revolvers, 45ACP from a 4"+ tube or even the occasional 45LC with JHPs are often doing better on a shot-by-shot basis than the cops. Seriously, I'll take a DoubleTap/Cor-Bon/BuffBore 125gr 357 *or* a Speer Gold Dot 250gr 45LC over any round fired by any cop in America, period, end of discussion. And there are other rounds in each caliber that come damned close to those.

Our buddy in the morgue is NOT seeing that class of ammo fired into bad guys, or if he has he's one of the few coroners in the US who has.

If he DID see what those things could do, I think he'd be damned impressed.

 

[bigmike45]

In a concealed carry/self defense mode, I agree that a small to mid sized frame 357mag, is the best choice for that situation. I have several and do infact carry them periodically. I have never felt undergunned with them. In the field, in a hunting situation, I have used a 357mag with both handloads and factory loads up to 180gr for hunting whitetails. I prefer the 41 over the 357 because of the experiences I have encountered with both calibers. As far as manufacturers making a fragile bullet for the 41 mag, Hornady has met that challenge with the 210gr XTP. I have been using it for years without over penetration being a problem. I am now testing the 240gr Winchester Platinum Tip Hollow Point factory load. Yes it is a heavy bullet, but if the bullet mushrooms fast enough due to it's design, it will dump more energy, as well as reducing the posibility of over penetration, due to that larger projectile. Would that be a viable self defense round....possibly. But then again I am not looking for another PD weapon in my 41 mag.

tex

 

[MountainPeak]

I carried a .41mag as my woods gun for many years. I was totally comfortable with it. I own quite a few 357s, but the 41 has always been my passion. Own a couple of those .429mags too, but never really saw the point of them!