357 Magnum vs. 10MM

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by Palladan44, Nov 11, 2020.

  1. Palladan44

    Palladan44 Member

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    Handloaders, 10mm has won me over my old 357s favorite. WHY?
    Performance advantage (based on my personal data), with more manageable recoil and equal accuracy, quicker follow up shots. Higher capacity. List goes on...

    Glock 40 MOS 10mm 6" lone wolf barrel
    S&W 586-1. 357 Mag. 6"

    10mm, starline brass
    Max published charges(or worked up near to)of Blue Dot, Power Pistol and AA#9 pushing 180 gr. Hornady XTPs. WLPP. Blue dot won with max average chronod at 1318 fps.

    357 Magnum, Starline brass.
    Max published charges (or worked up near to) of Win 296, 2400 and AA #9 pushing 158 gr. Hornady XTPs. WSPM or WSPP.
    Win 296 won with Max average of 1351 fps.


    Accuracy was very close, but felt recoil was observably less in the 10 mm glock vs the Smith and Wesson 586. Follow up shots easier in the semi auto 10mm vs wheelgun.

    The 357s when near max always have felt "stout" to me, you know youre shooting a magnum with the big BOOOM and muzzle flash, etc. and turning heads at the range.

    The 10mm...possibly like shooting a hot .40 smith and wesson. Maybe like a .45+p. Nothing to write home about as far as recoil or noise.
    BUT delivering a slight edge in foot pounds energy over the 357 boomer. Nobody turns their head at the range when shooting the 10mm. And thats a good sign. 10mm is a damn fine cartridge and has impressed the hell outta me. Just dont like chasing the brass....

    Just picked up an AR chambered in 10mm, CMMG banshee. Quite awesome, doubt anything like that will ever be chambered in the rimmed 357 magnum.

    A Colt delta elite for 1911 lovers, thats next on my radar. Just gotta come up with another 1.4k which coincidentally how much the Banshee cost me.
    10mm is filling more gaps than most handgun calibers i know of at the moment, even with Ruger making a super redhawk wheelgun in 10mm that also fires .40 s&w. Hmm.

    Lastly ive downloaded some 10mm loads to around 40 smith and wesson teritory (or even slightly above)
    , and in the big Glock 40 MOS they are tack drivers and can be shot extremely fast if needed.
    I would say i shoot it just like my 34 in lighter end 9mm target loads. Just awesome.
     
  2. Targa

    Targa Member

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    I am more of a revolver guy and the .357 is going to win it for me, but at the same time I think your summary of the auto10mm vs the 357 revolver is spot on. I would like a Delta Elite but by the time I have that kind of money together another one of those pesky revolvers rears it’s ugly head...:D
     
  3. mcb

    mcb Member

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    I am more of a revolver guy also but 10mm Auto wins over 357 Mag for me. I don't have much love for 357 Magnum but find 10mm Auto a nice revolver cartridge. That said ballistically speaking there is not enough different between the two for the target to tell the difference. I like 10mm for similar power levels to 357 Mag in a shorter fatter cartridge that works better with moonclips and is a little gentler on my ear when fired without protection.

    SDwcHPal.jpg
    My S&W 610 6.5-inch. The only thing better than a S&W 610 would be a S&W L-frame in 10mm Auto, but I am not holding my breath for that.
     
  4. Virginia Jim

    Virginia Jim Member

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    I have three 10 mm semiautomatics, and love shooting them and reloading. That said, I recently bought a S & W 686 and I am a much better shot with it. The single action trigger is sweet! I just bought a set of .357 dies and will soon start cranking them out.
     
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  5. DanK3Pos

    DanK3Pos Member

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    How about working up the .357 with Blue Dot? Alliant has load data published for it.
    Also, 1351 is quite a bit below Hodgdon's stated fps for a minimum load of W296 and 240fps below their max charge, but that was out of a 10" barrel.

    Of course, 15 rounds of 10mm does trump 6-8 rounds of .357, that and recoil and muzzle flash, as you stated.
     
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  6. Palladan44

    Palladan44 Member

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    Possibly cylinder gap leakage makes for some varying pressure loss from gun to gun in 357 mag.
    6" barrel and 10'" barrel in 357 using a slow powder like 296 ought to be the difference in velocity right there. I know there are "slow" wheelguns and "quick" wheelguns due to a few factors.
    I did work up blue dot as well in 357, forgot to mention that. But it was still in the lower-mid 1300s. Flashy as all hell, and pressure spikes which seem to occur randomly, based on top hatting of primers. I do recall reading the data for 296, and I was hoping to hit 1400fps based on the data, but never came even close. Real world learning i guess, im NOT an expert just passing along my findings. Cheers!
     
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  7. Palladan44

    Palladan44 Member

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    Upon doing more research (testaments of others on the internet) theve found Blue dot to be a very finnicky powder and some people are afraid to use it due to unpredictability. Alliant has a warning DO NOT USE IN 41 MAG. That has me quite intrigued since it can be used in both the 41s bigger and little brothers (357 and 44) people also claim it be very temperature sensitive with huge differences in ignition based on temperature. (Ive never seen this personally)
    One last notion, and i believe it to be aspect ratio of the case its being loaded. Im pulling this out from the top of my head here, but case loading aspect ratios of 2:1 or 1:1 are where blue dot shines. (10mm, and 12 gauge shotgun) the 3:1 or maybe 4:1 aspect ratio (longer and narrower cases) are where blue dot becomes a problem child. If anybody has more insight on that, do tell.
     
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  8. Palladan44

    Palladan44 Member

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    Handloading for 10mm as a revolver only must be a joy! Fully supported chamber, dont have to chase brass, and im sure loads can be worked up nicely to have the following: A Magnum attitude, Consistency, and accuracy.
     
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  9. euclid

    euclid Member

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    I enjoy both the 10mm and 357. My experience with both cartridges in revolvers with the same barrel length (4.2”) is that the 10mm has a slight edge. In my view, their both excellent...
     
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  10. ms6852

    ms6852 Member

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    I have both .357 686 no dash and 10mm semi-auto long slide and enjoy the heck out of both. Both of them have the 6" barrels. But at the end of the day I carry a 686 with a 3" barrel. I enjoy it more now especially since brass is scarce . My 10 mm ejects the brass to the next county, making it hard to pick up and reload. With so many new shooters at the ranges I'm afraid the hot brass will poke someones eye out. Don't have to worry about that with my .357.
     
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  11. DanK3Pos

    DanK3Pos Member

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    I find myself gravitating back to revolvers, as well.
     
  12. DanK3Pos

    DanK3Pos Member

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  13. ms6852

    ms6852 Member

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  14. GarrettJ

    GarrettJ Member

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    Going by feel alone is not a good way to compare handgun power. I can load you two cartridges in the same caliber using the same weight bullet where one "feels" hotter, but is actually the slower of the two. Same thing comparing a semi-auto to a revolver. The way an autoloader spreads out the recoil impulse gives it a very different feel as compared to a revolver. I've got some .44 loads that I can shoot in an auto all day, which quickly become not much fun in a revolver or single-shot.
     
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  15. Palladan44

    Palladan44 Member

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    Im not judging any actual quantifiable power by FEEL alone. Read my post again. Youre misunderstanding.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2020
  16. sparkyv

    sparkyv Member

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    Ain't that the truth! And the M610 N-frame can handle extra spicy loads at that. Some have even converted the M610 to 10mm Magnum!

    As have I.
     
  17. Ohen Cepel
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    Ohen Cepel Contributing Member

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    I like them both but when I ponder downsizing later in life I think I'll let the 10mm go first. I have semi's and get tired of chasing the brass, can only see that getting worse with time. However, if I have to go semi due to not being able to handle the recoil of a revolver that may change.

    Both are solid rounds and high on my list.
     
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  18. Klaatu Barada Nikto
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    Klaatu Barada Nikto Contributing Member

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    Can't find a 10mm in a lever action, I can run the same ammo for both, so for me the 357 is my cup of tea.
     
  19. Swampman

    Swampman Old Fart

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    When choosing between the 10mm and .357 mag, my vote goes to the .44 Special. :)
     
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  20. gnappi

    gnappi Member

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    The facts as I see it... Everything in caliber selection is a trade off... capacity, versus velocity, recoil, and contact / entry wound area. Whether a bullet expands and performs as hoped has too many variables to predict with certainty.

    Lacking availability of cadavers or live / dead animals to shoot many times... to anyone who has shot steel poppers on a windy day, and bowling pins on a table, it quickly becomes apparent that the larger / heavier .40, .45, .357, .10mm all have sufficient "knockdown power" where caliber (diameter) makes any difference is contact surface area. The larger calibers and / or velocity are more forgiving of a less than wonderfully placed shot. Take pins that have a pound or so of added weight to the 3lb. 6oz. standard pin from absorbing many bullets and they get harder still to take off the table.

    I've seen other calibers (like .38 super / special and 9mm) have center of mass hits on a bowling pin absorb and envelop the bullet and not even fall over. Yes, I've also seen shooters clean the table with five shots with the same calibers but, in all cases I knew of these were not anything like factory loads.

    Targets like water bottles, paint cans, watermelons are all such stupid examples of a target and a cartridge ability to illustrate any meaningful information, why these "tests" aren't ridiculed amazes me.

    Anyway, as it is I don't criticize anyone for what they use, see my signature file :)
     
  21. WestKentucky

    WestKentucky Member

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    The 357 and 10mm are pretty similar on paper but in reality they are different. .357 is faster and lighter, generally has a more rugged bullet because it’s a 357 and people run them pretty hot for hunting purposes. The 10mm is heavy and slow by comparison which has its notable pros and cons, especially at extended range where elevation hold can be tricky. The biggest drawback for 10mm is bullet selection because 10 never really took off like most mainstream pistol rounds so there hasn’t been much development specifically for it. .40 has been waning in popularity for quite a while now and similarly the bullet makers haven’t done a whole lot with 40sw bullets either when compared to the .357.

    What that all boils down to is this:

    A whitetail buck shot at 18 yards with a .357 took 2 shots in the chest as he walked by. The JHP bullets expanded to about .8 inches and stuck under the skin on far side.

    A whitetail buck shot at 11 yards with a 10mm took 3 shots to the chest as it walked by. The best bullet I could find at that time was a wide meplat truncated cone that did mushroom a bit to about .6 inches and lodged under the skin on the far side.

    Comparing the damage done, the .357 made a bigger hole and ripped loose more hide on the far side than the 10mm. The 10mm still got the job done but with non-expanding bullets and the lack of damage on the far side of the deer and almost no hide pulled loose I suspect that an expanding bullet would not have penetrated as deep and the damage would not have been focused in the vitals.

    As a hunting round I still like the 10mm but it is nipping at the heels of a .357. No auto loader that is not obnoxiously large (Desert Eagle) can maintain a steady diet of stout .357 magnum loads where there are many pistols which can take the 10mm all day long. It’s a pressure issue and .357 has a lot more of it than the 10mm. The thing 10mm has that .357 doesn’t is in capacity and reload speed. The guns (unless talking Coonan .357 or 10mm revolver) are different enough that they seem to fit totally different roles. .357 doesn’t have the capacity to be comfortable as a bear gun. You have 6, 7, or 8 shots depending upon the model and then it’s a slow reload, BUT the .357 as a primary hunting gun is more than adequate for thick woods whitetail, hog, etc. 10mm on the other hand is a bit softer shooting and has the capacity and reload speed necessary for defensive use against a large predator. Sink a dozen rounds into a bear and he generally isn’t inclined to keep up an attack. Reload and sink another dozen into him and you can feel pretty sure that your walking away on the winning side of the fight, but then you have a gun that is not quite as powerful and is not as well suited for a primary hunting arm. Yes, I do realize that most folks don’t take a sidearm as a primary, but it is getting more popular each year and I expect the red dot sight craze for semiautos will keep that trend going as it gets easier to accurately fire a sidearm out to a distance that folks feel comfortable hunting at. A bow hunting stand becomes a pistol stand.

    Each has its merits. I like both. I have owned both. Currently I own 3 .357 guns and 0 10mm but it is one thing I do want to buy to replace the delta elite I sold. I will buy fully supported and I will buy quality. .357 wins there as well because a 686 is around $700 new and 10mm of comparable quality is going to generally be a grand or more.
     
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  22. mcb

    mcb Member

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    See my earlier post, I like 10mm in a revolver.

    l48IrH7l.jpg

    Two does shoot about 30 seconds apart with a S&W 610, 10mm Auto, 200gr XTP going ~1250 fps at the muzzle. First doe hit at about 18 yards with a high shoulder shot going down through a shoulder blade and spine from a high tree stand, she dropped in her tracks and never moved. Second doe was hit with a double lung shot at ~25 yards and she spun a full 360 and not wanting to track her I gave her a follow up shot, again with a high shoulder going in just behind the shoulder blade angling forward and disrupting the spine enough to drop her in her tracks. All the bullets exited even the one that when through the shoulder blade and spine.

    Pick the proper bullet for the application and there is so little difference between the two cartridges ballistically as to not matter at all, again assuming you pick the right bullet.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2021
  23. CoalCrackerAl

    CoalCrackerAl Member

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    I have 10mm in 1911,wheel gun and carbine. I shoot the wheel gun more than the other 2. I don't loose my brass that way. The semi-auto's throw the brass far.
     
  24. BreechFace

    BreechFace Member

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    357 Mag Maximum Pressure = 35,000psi
    10mm Maximum Pressure = 37,500psi

    I think that if one did tests with bullets known for a good balance for expansion and penetration for both calibers, the difference would be minimal on performance.

    I think the comparison of 10mm to 357Mag is appropriate as they appear to be very similar in performance to one another. The 357Mag will be a little bit flatter shooting but not enough to have an errant hit when using the same POA between the two cartridges at handgun hunting distances.

    I have both a 357 Mag revolver and a 10mm Glock and for woods carry in my area my Glock gets carried. The benefits of additional capacity, ease of getting back on target are great benefits when hunting in wolf, bear and mountain lion country.

    I have a friend who was taking a backpacking trip with a few dads and their daughters last year and their group was being tracked by a pack of wolves. The wolves were on both sides waiting for a chance to get the group to disperse from one another, but the dads saw this and kept the group together and they started throwing rocks in the area of the wolves after a bit of this and continuing further down the trail they got to a point in the trail and the wolves just left. I wondered if they were at the edge of this packs territory, he said it was quite odd, how quick they just abandoned the hunt. All the fathers were carrying side arms, but knowing that there are wolves in the areas where I hunt, backpack and recreate, I'll choose my 10mm Glock for multiple threats.

    To each their own, there isn't a bad choice between the two.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2021
  25. bangbig

    bangbig Member

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    You guys are horrible.

    Forcing me to look for new guns and & new caliber to load.

    That's the story I'm telling my wife anyway!

    Glocks and s&w revolvers are my favorites, so I'll need one of each in 10mm now...
     
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