100% agreed. The only thing I would add to it is the only exception as far as I'm concerned is the Buffalo Bore series of "anti-personnel" .44mag loadings. Even those seem a little stiff to use as an SD round, but they are not as ridiculous as using full on hunting loads in your CCW (unless of course you live in an area where your CCW needs are based around protection from bears and whatnot).
357 Magnum
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100% agreed. The only thing I would add to it is the only exception as far as I'm concerned is the Buffalo Bore series of "anti-personnel" .44mag loadings. Even those seem a little stiff to use as an SD round, but they are not as ridiculous as using full on hunting loads in your CCW (unless of course you live in an area where your CCW needs are based around protection from bears and whatnot).
A little off topic but i specifically buy my SD bullets that are called something like "self defense". Hornady and corbon both have bullets called that. It's for no reason other than it looks better from a jurors perspective if you went out of your way to buy ammo called self defense (if you ever have to use them). Same reason you shouldn't load up crazy insane custom home brew bullets (wax slugs, flechette, dragons breath, etc) that a lawyer can claim was build to maim, murder, and cause excessive suffering on the victim.
PT92
Member
I wish I could take this opportunity to rant your head off, but IMO you are correct. That being said, I have changed my CCW load over to Hornady's Critical Duty after using their Critical Defense load. I will just take my chances with the "System" if that situation should ever materialize. Darn shame a good Citizen should even have to worry about such.
--Cheers
ArchAngelCD
Member.
I didn't see anyone talking about "one shot stops"?? We were talking about a "man stopper".
While everyone has different abilities and shooting a .357 Magnum isn't for everybody there are many who do carry a .357 Magnum and can shoot it well. It's all about the practice I guess. I have a M640 that's loaded with 145gr Winchester Silvertips and I can shoot that revolver well, make accurate hits and with quick follow-ups. Making a blanket statement that if you shoot a .357 Magnum you only get one shot is just not right. If you want to say you can only get one shot off that's fine but don't condemn everyone for your inability.
allaroundhunter
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3. Decibel level......
It really is hard to believe that this is not an April Fool's question.....El Godfather, you have posted about several other guns that you own, leading to a basic understanding of what caliber is capable of what. And now you ask if you need to step up to a .44 Magnum for self defense?? I would understand throwing a .44 Special into SD discussions, but I really don't know where you are trying to go here....
zxcvbob
Member
You're not paying attention.ArchAngelCD said:
I was just suggesting why the .357 data might be skewed towards single-shots. If you hit the bad guy with a double-tap from your 9mm, it doesn't count in this measurement even if the first shot was sufficient. If you hit him with a .357 and it drops before you get back on target, it does.DanGuy48 said:
I can shoot a .357 just fine, but I can shoot a .38 better and get back on target faster. I also already have constant ringing in my ears and want to minimize the additional damage if I ever have to take a shot without hearing protection. If you can accurately shoot rapid-fire .357's, good for you.
The great thing about .357 Mag is the wide range of applications it can be used for. There are so many loadings available for it. You can go from bunny farts to some serious power.
When it comes to power, 9mm and .45 ACP do not compare. When people say that handguns are poor excuses for what a rifle can do.... I tend to think that the magnums close that gap a good bit.
That being said, in SD configurations, they aren't really any better than 9mm or .45 ACP. You get less capacity to boot.
I carry a .357 Mag snub most of the time, but it's not hot loaded, it was inexpensive, and fits in a pocket well. It's not the best option, but it fits my needs and I'm comfortable with it.
When it comes to power, 9mm and .45 ACP do not compare. When people say that handguns are poor excuses for what a rifle can do.... I tend to think that the magnums close that gap a good bit.
That being said, in SD configurations, they aren't really any better than 9mm or .45 ACP. You get less capacity to boot.
I carry a .357 Mag snub most of the time, but it's not hot loaded, it was inexpensive, and fits in a pocket well. It's not the best option, but it fits my needs and I'm comfortable with it.
MCgunner
Member
I sold my 2.25" SP101 back to my SIL. I liked it, but had made that arrangement with him when he left for Iraq. Kid loves that gun. He'll be back from Afghanistan in August (hoping this is his last tour, is his 3rd) and he left the SP101 for my daughter while he's gone. She shoots it fine with .38s. I did some testing and found that with the short barrel, heavier loads, 140 and up, in magnums got more out of the gun. I got 550 ft lbs from a hot 140 Speer load from the gun, a little better than my 9 from my Kel Tec at 410 ft lbs, but boy, you pay for it in muzzle blast. So, for carry, the 9 is my favorite and I don't now own a .357 with less than a 3" barrel.
My 4" gun is a favorite hiking/outdoor gun and, yeah, that gun closes the gap on rifle performance enough that it can reach out 100 yards and put the hurt on something or someone. I carried that gun in a fanny pack down in Big Bend last spring for that reason, a concealable gun (a necessity in a national park) with REACH in case I need it and what with the war in Mexico and all the drug runners along the border armed to the teeth now days, the .357 beats a .38 or a .45 or a 9 for that duty. It's not really a rifle in a fanny pack, but it beat the hell ouf of my .45ACP for that. You might as well be throwing rocks at 100 yards with a .45, more of a mortar in trajectory, not a direct fire weapon at extended ranges. I used to shoot a snubby .38 a lot at a 14" plate at 100 yards. Oh, yes, I could make hits on it from roll over prone position, but the .357 is SO much easier to hit with. Zeroed at 100 yards, my Ruger Blackhawk hits on at 100 with the 180 XTP handloads I load for it. That .38 took some major elevation on the front sight.
I have killed hogs and deer with the .357, too, out of a 6.5" gun and a 3" gun for one hog, though that was a head shot. I don't hunt with .45ACP, not enough juice or penetration. A 180 JHP or a 165 grain Keith style SWC (my fave .357 hunting rounds) will PENETRATE on game and kill quite impressively quick. I've shot hogs in my trap with the .45ACP. It's not as impressive, though it doesn't bounce off.
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Just something I've noticed, most of the people I talk to that have a .357 mag revolver for personal defense carry .38 special ammo in them.
It makes sense. Out of very short barrels there is a lot of blast, flash, and noise with most .357mag loads. When I was carrying my SP101 3", I actually did carry some pretty beastly .357mag loads in it, but that's because with a 3" bbl and a steel revolver, it was heavy and tough enough that I could manage pretty quick repeat shots.
.38spl is also less expensive to practice with, carry, etc...
But, to go to my versatility argument from Post #49, part of the versatility of the .357 chambering is the ability to handle the lighter .38spl as well as the heavy .357mag stuff. It gives the full range.
Yeah its completely stupid, but its caused by the world we live in today. It may not be enough that I bought factory ammunition or reloaded my own within SAAMI specifications. A jury may want to know that I have "SELF DEFENSE" bullets (whatever the **** that means). If I have "~~~MAXiMuM bLO0dBATH~~ Z0mBi3 D@m@ge!!" JHP's I'm a psychotic murderer. If I have "Self Defense" JHP's I'm a concerned citizen worried about neighborhood drug addicts.
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el Godfather
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allrounder, I like to read the opinions of other people and compare them to my hypothesis. It is interesting for me to see how many people have similar reasoning, agree or disagree with me.
PT92
Member
Coming from "El GodFather" you have quite the patience
. Good to see an objective open mind which can be difficult at times in a forum environment.-Cheers
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el Godfather
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My main objective is to enhance my knowledge of different firearms. I have a modest collection with some very interesting pieces- almost rare is certain aspects, but I frequently find guys on some forums who have excellent knowledge of the weapons and technical know how. Some of their advice is just amazing. I tend to skim read the posts until I find something very interesting and original.
Back on 357.
How much is the velocity loss when fired from a 2'' barrel compared to a 6''? In your view is 2'' recommended size for SD or do we need a longer barrel size to get optimal results from 357, if so, at which length such optimal velocity-ft lbs is achieved?
Back on 357.
How much is the velocity loss when fired from a 2'' barrel compared to a 6''? In your view is 2'' recommended size for SD or do we need a longer barrel size to get optimal results from 357, if so, at which length such optimal velocity-ft lbs is achieved?
Results will vary depending on the load used.
You can expect somewhere between 150 and 200fps difference.
A longer barrel will get better results, but a 2in 357 is still a 357.
Don't believe those who tell you a snubby 357 is no better than a 38 special.
To add; If you use Ballistics by the inch you cant factor in the short barreled data, they include the chamber length into the overall barrel length. A 2in barrel in their data is really less than 1/2 an inch.
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MCgunner
Member
With short barrels, heavier the bullet, the better the ballistics and the less velocity you will lose. I got 550 ft lbs from a 2.25" SP101 and a 140 speer handload. I tried the 125s over a max load of the same 2400 powder and got only about 385 ft lbs and LOTS of noise and enough muzzle blast to get sunburned from. I really prefer the 140 for self defense, it's very accurate and carries more punch. I do NOT, however, have a 2" .357. I draw the line on .357 at 3" and have a 3" gun I sometimes belt carry. I mostly pocket carry and have a 9mm P11 Kel Tec and a Taurus 85SSUL .38 special that work fine for that. The 9 has some decent punch for a pocket gun and lacks all that flash/bang. It's my preferred carry and normally what I put in my Blackhawk number 4 pocket holster.
Anyway, best to use heavier than 125 grain bullets in a short, short barrel. I've done the chronographing, no factory loads in my testing, though.
Anyway, best to use heavier than 125 grain bullets in a short, short barrel. I've done the chronographing, no factory loads in my testing, though.
My .44 mag is a hunting pistol. My .357s, .38s, .45s and .44 specials are SD pistols.
Speaking of ammo names, that's the reason I never loaded any of my SD guns with "Black Lightning" ammo.
The box read, "Black Lightning. Final Judgment."
I figured that ammo would be good for a trip to the butt-rape motel.
Speaking of ammo names, that's the reason I never loaded any of my SD guns with "Black Lightning" ammo.
The box read, "Black Lightning. Final Judgment."
I figured that ammo would be good for a trip to the butt-rape motel.
ArchAngelCD
Member.
For the most part a 5" barrel is needed to achieve optimum velocity from a .357 Magnum. BUT, a .357 Magnum will always yield more velocity than a .38 Special no matter how long or short the barrel is. When you start with more velocity you end up with more velocity even when you lose velocity with a short barrel. The loss between a 2" and 6" barrel will vary greatly between different revolvers depending upon all different variables including barrel/cyl gap and the other variables associated with revolvers...
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