Varminterror
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If a guy doesn’t buy factory Winchester ammo, they don’t have to use .355” bullets in .350 Legend. Problem solved. The bitching can cease.
357 maximum vs 350 legend
- Thread starter horsemen61
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I almost mentioned that. But it doesn’t seem to make a difference in my .45 Convertible. Bullet selection seems to make the biggest difference in accuracy, cartridge length or “bullet jump” notwithstanding.
It is kind of interesting.
someguy2800
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Weird then that’s its not failing.
someguy2800
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As a 357 maximum owner I can tell you your not missing out on anything with this bore size nonsense. There isn’t a single .357 bullet in production that is actually suitable for the impact velocities you can achieve with a 350 legend. Not a single one. The closest one will probably be the 180 xtp which is popular in 357 max. This is what happens when you push that bullet to 1990 fps muzzle velocity. The one on the left was shot into water jugs at 20 feet, the two on the right at 100 yards. Still over expanding at 100 yards. This is already downloaded. My 13" 357 max will push them 2200 fps if you really push the pedal.
Now sure if you are just plinking or shooting varmints or something then go ahead and use handgun bullets, but this is really only a benefit if you happen to have a pile of revolver bullets.
The story is not a whole lot better on the .358 side of things. Have you looked at what is actually available in .358 bullets and what the prices are? Almost all .358 bullets are $40 per 100 or more. You really want that??? Plus most of them are too heavy for the 350 legends small case size. 180 is ideal, 200 is starting to push it. Most of them are also too hard to expand decently at the velocities your going to push with this cartridge. The one and only bullet in .358 that is actually appealing at all is the 180 grain speer hot core. Your going to want to push it at least 2200 fps to make sure it will still expand to 200 yards but it would work.
So where are all these bullets that people are just dying to load in there 357 AR Max that they never bought or cared about? What do you think your missing out on? Why can't you buy one of the bullets on sale now that was actually made for the 350 legend? Please explain it to me.
Now sure if you are just plinking or shooting varmints or something then go ahead and use handgun bullets, but this is really only a benefit if you happen to have a pile of revolver bullets.
The story is not a whole lot better on the .358 side of things. Have you looked at what is actually available in .358 bullets and what the prices are? Almost all .358 bullets are $40 per 100 or more. You really want that??? Plus most of them are too heavy for the 350 legends small case size. 180 is ideal, 200 is starting to push it. Most of them are also too hard to expand decently at the velocities your going to push with this cartridge. The one and only bullet in .358 that is actually appealing at all is the 180 grain speer hot core. Your going to want to push it at least 2200 fps to make sure it will still expand to 200 yards but it would work.
So where are all these bullets that people are just dying to load in there 357 AR Max that they never bought or cared about? What do you think your missing out on? Why can't you buy one of the bullets on sale now that was actually made for the 350 legend? Please explain it to me.
Well, that depends. Sometimes it's going to require extra steps. Read this in an article on loading for the Ruger American .350:
"Every bullet used in the data below were sized to 0.356″, with the exception of Winchester factory bullets which already measured 0.355″. Bullets 0.3575″ and 0.3580″ either prevented the Ruger’s bolt from closing… smart bolt, or they generated enough pressure to blow out primers. None of the bullets sized to 0.356″ showed excessive pressure"
Please tell the load that generates that velocity.
someguy2800
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I don't have it in front of me but it was 1680 with a small rifle magnum primer loaded long in the 2nd cannelure, which would be pretty similar case size to a 350 legend. My hunting load is with H110 downloaded to 1900 FPS due to bullet limitations. There are some newer powders such as CFE BLK and SWBO that should also be stout performers but I haven't gotten around to trying them. Please also note this is probably 55,000=60,000 psi. Not suitable for revolvers, or any rifle that is not capable of 223 pressures.
someguy2800
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No I have tried RL7, IMR4198, and accurate 2015 which are all way to slow and will not burn completely even with compressed loads, so I imagine RL10x will be even worse. I don't know anything about Norma 200 but its about right on the burn rate chart.
Lil Gun would also probably be a real burner in 357 max but I refuse to use it as it did really frightening dangerous things in my 300 blackout in cold temps.
Interesting. I've gotten my highest .357 Max velocities using Lil Gun, and haven't had any issues. At least not in the Contender. And that was at 17° F. Haven't tried it in the BLK, but I really only load subs I that one.
someguy2800
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I worked up to the maximum book load with it in my 16" 300 blackout at maybe 50 degrees F or so it shot fine with no pressure issues. I tested it at -20 deg F a couple winters ago just to see if it was stable at low temps and it blew the primers out and expanded the case heads like .100". The primer pockets were almost large enough to fit a large rifle primer. This was with the exact same box of ammo I loaded on the same day. I poured the rest of my lil gun out on the lawn.
Unfortunately, I now had the same experience w/ Lil'Gun.
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6764008&postcount=93
I will offer, however that running a Quickload powder scan for the Legend/Speer 180 HotCor / mid-40's ksi/15" barrel/90%+ burn shows Norma200 as unquestioned best, followed closely by RL10X. 1680 was considerably further down the list.
Testing confirmed same, and I trust both powders to perform predictably
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6764008&postcount=93
I will offer, however that running a Quickload powder scan for the Legend/Speer 180 HotCor / mid-40's ksi/15" barrel/90%+ burn shows Norma200 as unquestioned best, followed closely by RL10X. 1680 was considerably further down the list.
Testing confirmed same, and I trust both powders to perform predictably
someguy2800
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The stuff is downright dangerous. Lots of scary stories out there about lilgun.
I noticed from your thread was that you said when shooting 1680 that the muzzle blast was unpleasant. This is actually the reason I stopped shooting 1680 in my 357 max, along with the fact that extreme spreads and accuracy was pretty mediocre. 25 or so grains of 1680 out of a 13" pistol was downright horrendous to shoot. The noise was appalling even wearing earmuffs and the recoil impulse was unpleasant.
Have you ran quickload for a 357 maximum? I'm curious what it predicts for the slightly smaller 357 maximum case. When I tried the slower powders such as RL7 and 4198 you litterally could not fit enough of it in the case to get it to burn decently. I would get like 1600 fps with a barrel filled with powder curnels, so I am surprised that it says RL10x would be appropriate. Do you have CFE BLK in your quickload? I am thinking about doing another round of workup in the maximum and trying the winchester 180 gr 350 legend bullet. At the time I was heavy into the 357 max the 180 speer had been out of stock everywhere for a couple years so I never tried them in the maximum but I do have a few hundred now I bought for my 358 yeti.
greyling22
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I'm not saying it's failing, it's a great concept, I just feel that in reinventing the wheel, they made some design choices that don't make sense to me from a manufacturing or reloading standpoint, and thus it limits my interest. Now, if only the 358 yeti would go mainstream....... https://www.maddogweapons.com/358-yeti.html
someguy2800
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I have a yeti, it’s great. Get one if you like it. It will never go anywhere unless people take the leap.
greyling22
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I would, but I just cannot swing a $400 barrel. If I could get a barrel for $150-$200 it might be a different story. I actually like almost all the calibers offered by mdws. Apparently they are my people....
someguy2800
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don’t hold your breath. I bet the barrel and bolt extension costs them nearly that.
Larry Poho
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i have one and a 357 magnum as well. Not the same. “most" barrels now made for the Legend are a maximum of .356 spec to shoot accurately. Can you shoot a 357 pistol boolit in that barrel? Yes, but why would you do a dumb thing like that when you could use a designed "rifle round” that is aero designed for a rifle, and more designed at 9mm. The 350- Legend is not a pistol caliber rifle. It is a designated rifle round. I shoot both and the Legend blows the 357 magnum away. Not the 357 Maximum. They are similar but the slight power edge goes to the Max, and the accuracy in the Legend is much better. Think what you want. They are not the same as a 357 mag pistol caliber boolit at all.
someguy2800
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The 350 legend should definitely be more powerful than a 357 max. Its substantially longer and a larger diameter case giving it about a 3 gain case capacity advantage. I can't speak to the 350 legend's accuracy but my 357 maximum is no slouch in the accuracy department shooting MOA from a 13" contender, so I wouldn't say that either is more accurate than the other.
Larry Poho
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My new 350 Legend. Too much fun, even more fun than allowed by law. Surprisingly accurate for a 9.5 barrel. Left to right 350 legend, 357 magnum, 38 special.
Varminterror
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@Larry Poho - can you explain data to support your opinion that the Max is more powerful than the Legend?
Supporting that a 40,000psi cartridge with a case capacity of 34grn H2O will our power a 55,000psi cartridge with a capacity of 36.5grn H2O...
Think you need to go back to the books. If you’re outrunning a Legend with a Max, you’re either WAY over pressure in the Max, or you’re running starting loads in the Legend.
Supporting that a 40,000psi cartridge with a case capacity of 34grn H2O will our power a 55,000psi cartridge with a capacity of 36.5grn H2O...
Think you need to go back to the books. If you’re outrunning a Legend with a Max, you’re either WAY over pressure in the Max, or you’re running starting loads in the Legend.
Larry Poho
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Larry Poho
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There is a thing called hand loading, which I have been dong for years. Federal, and Hornady also sell the 9mm 350 Legend. I just came from a hugh gun show in Orlando at the Central Florida Fairgrounds. Two hugh buildings full of vendors and people. All of the 350 Legend rifles were gone by Saturday evening and a bunch of new AR-15 builds were sold as well. I saw only 6 -9 boxes of Legend ammo was left at the whole show. Nearly sold out, but all the ammo vendors told me they would have more by Sunday. It is catching on because unlike the Max, the Legend has backing. Hornady, Federal, Ruger, CMMG, Winchester, Starline and CZ are all on board. I am not sure about CZ, but was told they were at the show. You can make the brass out of 223/5.56 brass also and a regular AR 15 mag can be altered to work fine. So It is getting off the ground nicely. i love my 9.5 inch AR. I was going to get a 10mm CMMG but this thing blows it away with more accuracy, power, and distance, and lower pressure and recoil is not bad at all. I would say it is between the 30-30 I have and the 35 which I don’t have, but more accurate.
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Varminterror
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Reading comprehension and internal ballistics seem to be a bit of a challenge for you.
Larry Poho
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i said slightly. Insignificant. Very similar.And every “new” caliber runs at mid level to start out. The entire industry needs to keep up. That was learned by the Max. It was burning the top straps out on handguns like the Ruger. Winchester is holding the throttle back. If one AR blows up, it could stop the whole thing. They know it. My Bro in law is loading a 180 grain Legend boolit that does 2660 average. I would never load that way until we all know what this Legend can do. He told me no flattened primers, no craters, and none of the Starline brass has stressed at all. This is an advantage of a straight walled cartridge. I don’t need to go back to the books lol. They are only beginning to be written. The factory ammo is always under potential. The lawyers make sure of that. Then Underwood, Buffalo Bore and Double Tap take it to it’s ++ Sami specs where it reaches close to its limits. They have no secret magic. Just add propellant. No the books are not written yet. Thats what is interesting about new calibers like the 350 Legend. Remember the Grendel. It is mow reaching it’s potential that can only be reached by hand loading. But you won’t see those on the market.
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