357 maximum vs 350 legend

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I am blown away that there is a NEW 35 straight walled case cartridge. Bought a Dan Wesson in 357 maximum when they were new. Took many a white tailed and 1 mule deer with it. Ten years ago I converted my Marlin 357 mag rifle to 357 maximum. (Yes, easily done if you can find a smith who will listen to you. Ignore the rumors, nothing changes in the function of the rifle; lever throw stays exactly the same and 357 mag cartridge still functions through the gun.)

W296 is my powder of choice working well in both guns. 1800 fps in the revolver and 2260 in the rifle pushing the 180 gr jacketed flat-point .358" diameter bullet.

Easier to load than the Legend because it will run in the carbide die, and DOESN'T head-space on the mouth of the case!

Btw Mike Belm chambered the barrel for me. NOBODY knows the 357Maximum better!
 
I am blown away that there is a NEW 35 straight walled case cartridge. Bought a Dan Wesson in 357 maximum when they were new. Took many a white tailed and 1 mule deer with it. Ten years ago I converted my Marlin 357 mag rifle to 357 maximum. (Yes, easily done if you can find a smith who will listen to you. Ignore the rumors, nothing changes in the function of the rifle; lever throw stays exactly the same and 357 mag cartridge still functions through the gun.)

W296 is my powder of choice working well in both guns. 1800 fps in the revolver and 2260 in the rifle pushing the 180 gr jacketed flat-point .358" diameter bullet.

Easier to load than the Legend because it will run in the carbide die, and DOESN'T head-space on the mouth of the case!

Btw Mike Belm chambered the barrel for me. NOBODY knows the 357Maximum better!

Did Mike BellM do the whole conversion on your Marlin, or just the barrel? What all was involved if you don't mind
 
Easier to load than the Legend because it will run in the carbide die, and DOESN'T head-space on the mouth of the case!
Unfortunately it also wont run from a detachable magazine, or most common long guns besides a modified (from what ive read) lever, or single shot.
Id love to have a Marlin94 in .357Max, so I to am interested in what modification were necessary, if any, to make it work.
 
I would too, I have taken it as beyond reason, a Class 4 project.

Ed Harris said the main reason for rechambering a .357 single shot to Maximum was to get a rifle type throat and not a mockup of a revolver cylinder.
 
It’s good to have choices, that way everyone gets to be happy. I have a thing for single stack .380’s with frames larger than sub-compact: Sig P232, Beretta Cheetah 85, etc. I doubt many people have the same like, it doesn’t bother me at all. The .350 Legend and Maximum on the other hand hold zero attraction for me.
 
Have a .357 Henry SS that Mike Belm chambered to .357 Maximum....having very difficult time getting any load or bullet wt to give accuracy. Have tried 140 gr, 158 gr, 170 gr. 180s and 200s...nothing that makes me want to take it to the deer stand. Even factory 158s were in 5-6 inch groups. Any suggestions before I put it to the back of the gun safe?
 
Have a .357 Henry SS that Mike Belm chambered to .357 Maximum....having very difficult time getting any load or bullet wt to give accuracy. Have tried 140 gr, 158 gr, 170 gr. 180s and 200s...nothing that makes me want to take it to the deer stand. Even factory 158s were in 5-6 inch groups. Any suggestions before I put it to the back of the gun safe?

Perhaps there is something wrong with the rechambering because I have never shot any load in my 357 that shot that badly.
 
Have a .357 Henry SS that Mike Belm chambered to .357 Maximum....having very difficult time getting any load or bullet wt to give accuracy. Have tried 140 gr, 158 gr, 170 gr. 180s and 200s...nothing that makes me want to take it to the deer stand. Even factory 158s were in 5-6 inch groups. Any suggestions before I put it to the back of the gun safe?
What did the gun do BEFORE the conversion?
 
As far as cartridges go, I prefer straight wall cartridges be rimmed. From a market prospective, the choice has been made. In one year the number of factory firearms chambered for the Legend has surpassed the Maximum choices available for nearly 40 years. In the mainstream market, cartridges don't usually fare well without a variety of corresponding firearms choices.

The Maximum never saw significant use beyond silhouette, which wasn't enough to make the round a commercial success. Of course, discontinuation of the firearm introducing the round commercially also did much harm.

There are at least a couple of revolver platforms that could seemingly be used to produce a Max six shooter, but so far they haven't been done on a commercial scale. That suggests to me that they simply don't see much of a market for a revolver so chambered, (or perhaps the Legends case taper is too much for a revolver action).

On the rifle side, I don't recall ever seeing any factory repeaters in 357 Max. For the Legend, rifle options seemed to have made the round a success.
 
The 350 legend is actually a 9mm not the same as a 357. The only advantage I see is that it shoots very accurately . Its a pointed boolit also, that has very little drop out to 240 yards, its maximum potential for deer and smaller game. Advantage 2 over the 357 max is that Mike Bellm Is having a hard time getting the Max off the ground. It uses pistol boolits and the 350 legend has a designed rifle boolit and one is a hunting round. I talked with Mr Bellm at length about the Max. He is very passionate about it. Maybe if he went with another platform other than single shot rifles. But the 350 legend has an actual big ammo/rifle company pushing theirs. Rifles and ammo. Also there is already a BFR Revolver in 350 Legend. Ruger is making other rifles in the 350 legend along with other companies. The AR platform is a BIG industry and is selling out constantly of the Legend. Make no mistake. The Legend is here to stay. Yes it is similar to the Max, and is slightly out performed in power. But the Legend in a 16-24 inch barrel is very accurate and is a real rifle boolit. Balistics by the inch changes very little, from 16-24 inch, only about 180 FPS. It does have a place in the 250 yard hunting range. But what it has that is most important is BIG backing. I would bet it is here to stay.

I have known Mike Bellm for 40+ years. When they first came out, I bought a Dan Wesson in 357 Max and used it to hunt both Mule and Whitetail deer. Took a Whitetail at 175 yards with the DW. It also became my gun of choice for shooting NRA Pistol Silhouette (much more accurate than my Ruger Redhawk in 44 mag). I have also owned a Marlin 1894C in 357 Magnum for about the same length of time.

About ten years ago I set about to convert the Marlin to the 357 Maximum. I like the idea that I can use the same cartridge in my rifle and revolver. First let me dissuade anyone from the idea that it cannot be done or is even difficult, and also, that the pressures are too high for the Marlin. Mike Bellm's knowledge on chamber lengths and throat configuration made him the best choice to rechamber the barrel. After that was done I put about 50 rounds one at a time through the rifle. It was amazingly much more accurate than when it was a 357 Magnum. Then the fiasco began.

When the 357 Maximum first came out, developed for pistol Silhouette competition by Elgin Gates, who founded IHMSA, there was a rush to chamber the Marlin Carbine in it. Some smiths knew what they were doing and most didn't. I, way back then, fired two rifles converted by two different smiths. One was flawless behaving exactly like the original in feeding, firing, and ejecting. The other had the throw of the lever changed and the rifle would hardly feed the cartridge or eject the spent case.

Bellm was not set up to do the full conversion. I found a smith who said he knew how to convert the rifle. After a year he finally sent it back to me and refunded my money. The rifle would jam requiring disassembly. I had thoroughly research the changes that needed to be made and had supplied a schematic as to what needed to be done. He apparently disagreed with my suggestions and left me with a non-functioning rifle.

I continued to look for about 4 years for a Lever Rifle expert who had made such a conversion before. I finally went with a guy who is famous for converting Marlins for Cowboy competition. I sent him the rifle and he said that he could refine the modifications to get it functioning but would not stand behind his work because it was not his modification, just a fix of someone elses. Anyway, his work cost me more than 3 times what I'd paid for the rifle, and returned it with a note saying it was a "little rough in the cycling!" For sure, it would jam due to a mis-feeding glitch that would jam the cartridge between the carrier and the bolt. . .also requiring disassembly to free it up. No warrantee!!!

But he had progressed the evolution far enough along that a substantial amount of work with a jewelers file on my part got it feeding perfectly. Worked just as smoothly as when the gun was new. Too slick! I discovered that although it functioned smoothly apparently the process of slicking the action up to allow fast function as he did for the competition rifles, there was no longer a disconnect of the trigger until the bolt came to full battery. If the trigger was pulled at any point after the bolt was beginning its travel forward, the hammer would fall. Luckily my discovery of this problem did not strike the primer hard enough fire the less than half-chambered cartridge. Six years later the rifle still sits. A conversation piece.

I certainly strayed in this tome. But, to reiterate, the Maximum has some bullet advantages over the Legend, the Maximum can handle .358" diameter bullets giving a wider range of bullet selections, at lease in my research, for rifle work than is available for the 9mm Legend. One last tidbit, after the re-chamber, of those 50 test shots 20 were at milk jugs of water at 300 yds. Yes, scoped and on a bench rest, and all the 180 gr JHP rifle bullets, designed for the 35 Remington, expanded well.

I just found my old post about the Marlin, done back when I still remembered the velocities.
 
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Did Mike BellM do the whole conversion on your Marlin, or just the barrel? What all was involved if you don't mind

No just the chambering! The carrier had to be re-timed to lift the cartridge a bit higher sooner in the cycle so the bolt would catch the rim as it moved forward. The ejector had to be shortened so that it didn't hit the cartridge case before the mouth of the case cleared the chamber. Actually the ejector is shortened significantly because the action needs to be able to eject the un-fired cartridge.

The carrier also needs some work to move the stop shoulder back to provide room for the longer cartridge. That stop is rounded and the cartridge actually rides up over it , but falls into proper alignment as it is lifted. The only other changes needed was a mild blunting of the back edge of the front guides on the carrier. The Smith who nearly completed the work couldn't figure out why the action would sometimes jam. The rear edges of those guide fingers were actually sharp and the spring driven cartridge came out of the tubular magazine it would bounce up and as it settled back down onto the carrier and if the tip of the bullet had exposed lead at the tip, the sharp back of the fingers would embed and stick the cartridge in place. Slightly rounding the back edge of those fingers eliminated all jamming and everything worked together to produce a smooth feed process.
 
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Larry Poho said:
The 350 legend is actually a 9mm not the same as a 357.

SAAMI
Bore/Groove/Twist/Area

9mm LUG = 0.346/0.355/10/0.967insq
357 MAG = 0.346/0.355"/18/0.969insq
350 LEG = 0.346/0.355"/16/0.967insq

BARREL BOTTOM LINE(s): 9mm = 357M = 350L
No practical difference as far as SAAMI's concerned, save the 9mm's considerably faster twist
 
SAAMI Bore/Groove/Twist/Area
9mm LUG = 0.346/0.355/10/0.967insq
357 MAG = 0.346/0.355"/18/0.969insq
350 LEG = 0.346/0.355"/16/0.967insq

BARREL BOTTOM LINE(s): 9mm = 357M = 350L
No practical difference as far as SAAMI's concerned, save the 9mm's considerably faster twist

You should include the tolerances on those numbers when you quote them. Also include the SAAMI specs bullet diameter and associated tolerances. Also realize SAAMI tolerances are likely 2-4 x larger than most manufactures will typically hold on their own internal process controls. Most manufactures will hold +.001/-.000 on bore and groove diameters, often tighter on precision rifle barrels. Similar for most bullet manufactures. Despite the SAAMI spec everyone knows and accepts that 9x19mm is a nominal .355 inch in diameter (groove diameter and jacketed bullet diameter) and 357 Mag is a nominal .357 inch (groove diameter and jacketed bullet diameter).

And unfortunately for Winchester not everyone yet seems to agree what 350 Legend should be and much of that is Winchester's fault. Winchester says .357 and I believe that is currently what they intend. But "9mm" was thrown around a lot when the cartridge was first introduced and that implied .355 to a lot of people. A Winchester rep at their booth at NRA annual meeting in 2019 told me personally 9mm. When I asked him to clarify .355 vs .357 and he said, .355. 358 Legend is a real thing due to Winchester's failure to communicate well. Go figure.
 
First let me dissuade anyone from the idea that it cannot be done or is even difficult

[...]

When the 357 Maximum first came out, developed for pistol Silhouette competition by Elgin Gates, who founded IHMSA, there was a rush to chamber the Marlin Carbine in it. Some smiths knew what they were doing and most didn't. I, way back then, fired two rifles converted by two different smiths. One was flawless behaving exactly like the original in feeding, firing, and ejecting. The other had the throw of the lever changed and the rifle would hardly feed the cartridge or eject the spent case.

[...]



Bellm was not set up to do the full conversion.

[...]

I found a smith who said he knew how to convert the rifle. After a year he finally sent it back to me and refunded my money. The rifle would jam requiring disassembly.

[...]

I finally went with a guy who is famous for converting Marlins for Cowboy competition. I sent him the rifle and he said that he could refine the modifications to get it functioning but would not stand behind his work because it was not his modification, just a fix of someone elses. Anyway, his work cost me more than 3 times what I'd paid for the rifle, and returned it with a note saying it was a "little rough in the cycling!" For sure, it would jam due to a mis-feeding glitch that would jam the cartridge between the carrier and the bolt. . .also requiring disassembly to free it up.

[...]

a substantial amount of work with a jewelers file on my part got it feeding perfectly. Worked just as smoothly as when the gun was new. Too slick! I discovered that although it functioned smoothly apparently the process of slicking the action up to allow fast function as he did for the competition rifles, there was no longer a disconnect of the trigger until the bolt came to full battery. If the trigger was pulled at any point after the bolt was beginning its travel forward, the hammer would fall.

[...] Six years later the rifle still sits. A conversation piece.

I gotta tell you... after so many years and multiple smiths touching it, it sure seems like your experience does not support your claim.

When multiple experienced smiths fail in the task in the same way many others around the country have also failed, your described experience (and that of others) doesn’t seem to support your implication that converting a Marlin to .357 Max isn’t difficult.
 
Despite the SAAMI spec everyone "knows" and accepts that 9x19mm is a nominal
.355 inch in diameter (groove diameter and jacketed bullet diameter) and 357 Mag
is a nominal .357 inch (groove diameter and jacketed bullet diameter).
And yet... and yet.... I'm shooting Speer 180 HotCors (sized to .357) and all my cast (.357/8)...in the (gasp) Legend.
But I have to agree -- initial roll-out advertising consistency was less than optimal.
 
Ok guys in my mind two very similar cartridges so in your eyes who wins this

A) 357 maximum

B) 350 legend


Why did you picke A)/B)?
A, I reload and the legend would be a nightmare to reload because it head spaces on the mouth which is problematic in a rifle. If you're going to shoot factory ammo any like the loadings it would be fine, although I think the sectional densities are a little weak. They'd be fine for close range but Winchester is advertising it as a 200 yard deer cartridge. A 357 max in a rechambered Henry single shot with 200 grain spire points seems like a better deal to me, but I like obscure calibers and oddball guns.
 
A, I reload and the legend would be a nightmare to reload because it head spaces on the mouth which is problematic in a rifle. If you're going to shoot factory ammo any like the loadings it would be fine, although I think the sectional densities are a little weak. They'd be fine for close range but Winchester is advertising it as a 200 yard deer cartridge. A 357 max in a rechambered Henry single shot with 200 grain spire points seems like a better deal to me, but I like obscure calibers and oddball guns.

Why is it problematic? I have loaded hundreds of rounds of 450 Bushmaster, a cartridge that is a very similar in that it is a rebated straightwall rimless cartridge that head spaces on them mouth and have never had an issue with head space. Its been a very easy and pleasurable cartridge to reload. I think this supposed head space issue for straight-wall rimless rifle rounds is a bit over blown. No one even mentions it for handgun rounds and most reloaders don't even bother trimming or even checking the length of our pistol cases, straightwall rifle seems nearly the same in my experience. I do go the effort to measure each batch of cases to make sure they have not shrunk under the minimum and then load them up. Never an issue.
 
Depends on the platform. The .357Max makes the most sense in a revolver, levergun or single shot. The .350 makes the most sense in a boltgun or AR. Funny, that's kinda how the two cartridges were designed.

That said, existing .357Max revolvers are best used as conversion fodder for the various 1.6" case revolver cartridges.
 
Depends on the platform. The .357Max makes the most sense in a revolver, levergun or single shot.

If there was a way to convert my Rossi 92 to 357 Max, I'd be on it in a heartbeat.

All the thump of a 35Rem, but without the bulk of a 336. Nice trim package.

Apparently there's a few Winny 94's that have been made to function in 357 Max as one off customs, but at that point, I'd probably just stick with a turn key Marlin 336.
 
Maximum, but not a fan of either.
Guess I am not up on all the necessity for competition every year with new calibers, new model rifles, new optics,
new shot show everything. This is how it works in the race for attention in cars, trucks, all the way down to flexable
water hoses.
But some say change is good, well in some ways it is but the ones that loose in the competition won't agree because
all that money they put into mfg and advertising cost them their business sometimes and they have to sell out.
So, I guess my answer is the maximum, which was part of the same competition and has survived, to some extent.
I just wish all the - 6 mm - caliber would calm down, using an existing bullet diameter and making new cases
which develop new rifles, the lines get so blurred, watching a hunting channel and listening to all the NEW rifles
with NEW calibers makes us shake our head.
I don't see the 350 Legend surviving.
 
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