.357 or .45 long colt

[test drive]

gun in question colt single action 4 and 5/8 bbl. im talking about "knock down power" "energy on target" "power factor" or what ever you want to call it. which has more? now say at 5 feet the .45 would win out if nothin else just make a bigger hole. but as distance increases does the .357 mag gain ground or will it allways take a back seat to .45 long colt? this is not a which to buy as I have made my choice. this is to clear up a argument. thanks

 

[Gryffydd]

Seeing as how you're pretty much limited to the original ~12k PSI loads for the .45 Colt in that particular gun, the .357 wins pretty easily. Having said that, a 250gr bullet, even at 800-900 feet per second is no slouch.

Go find an external ballistics calculator on the web if you want to find out how the two rounds behave at any given distance.

im talking about "knock down power" "energy on target" "power factor" or what ever you want to call it.

By the way, these may not all even be the same thing, depending on how someone decides to interpret them.

 

[test drive]

thank you. the argument im into is with a few wana be "cow boys" who shoot .45 long colt and have no understanding of ballistics and say that the 45 being larger in cal. gives it more power or knock down than the smaller .357

 

[Gryffydd]

Well, it's not so much the larger diameter of the bullet, but the .45 Colt can be much more powerful than the .357. I can easily get 300gr bullets going 1200fps out of my 5.5" Blackhawk...

If they're chalking it up to the diameter that's pretty silly, but there are a lot of variables that can change the answer.

 

[Fanfare Ends]

Not me either!

LOL!

 

[1911Tuner]

Don't sell the old .45 short. A blunt 250-grain slug at 900 fps is perfectly capable of wrecking your entire day.

The British pretty well solved the problem of bullet effectiveness on human beings over 250 years ago with their "Heavy ball/Light charge" approach in the smoothbore musket which launched a 3/4 inch diameter ball at around 800 fps. Due to the set-piece tactics of the day, they weren't concerned with trajectories or even precise accuracy. All they wanted was to put their man down. Pictures from the American Civil War bear grisly testament to what damage was inflicted on a human limb by a 500-grain Minie' that left the muzzle at a nominal 960 fps.

Heavy ball. Light charge. The formula was frighteningly effective in 1750, and it still is.

 

[USSR]

im talking about "knock down power" "energy on target" "power factor" or what ever you want to call it. which has more? now say at 5 feet the .45 would win out if nothin else just make a bigger hole. but as distance increases dose the .357 mag gain ground or will it allways take a back seat to .45 long colt?

If you're talking about something empirical such as "knock down power", having shot deer with both the .357 Magnum (factory ammo) and the .45LC (handloaded ammo), I can tell you without a doubt that the .45LC properly loaded (255+gr SWC @ 1000+fps) has more "knock down power" than the .357 Magnum.

Don

 

[Stainz]

Perhaps they were referring to the original black powder loads of a 250gr LRNFP over 40gr fff bp? Reportedly, that shot from a 7.5" Peacemaker broke 1,000 fps, while modern smokeless rounds are detuned to stay within the 14kpsi max loading and are quite a bit milder - often pushing the same pill at 200+ fps slower, too. As an example, a 125gr JHP .357 Magnum would have to make over 1,414 fps to equal the kinetic energy - or 2,000+ fps to equal the momentum - of that original bp .45 Colt. Without expansion, the .45 Colt will always make a 60+% larger wound area (hole).

Stainz

 

[Brian Williams]

One of my favorites, was a Taurus Tracker in 45 Colt, if I still had it I would carry it over my S&W 13 in 357. With 255 gr LFPRN and a bunch of unique it was a thumper. Recoil was a hard shove and not the sharp rap a 357 tends to have. Since there was a lower recoil it was easier to keep shots on target. While I love the 357, if i had to I would carry a 5 shot 45 Colt over a 357 anyday.

 

[Brian Williams]

OBTW, what is your choice since you state that in the OP.

 

[Slamfire]

If you are simply shooting lead bullets, or very hard lead bullets that don't expand, I would go with the 45 LC causing more damage.

It would cut a larger hole. Both rounds will completely penetrate someone, the larger hole is a good thing.

When you get into expanding bullets, it has been said that the 125 grain JHP in a 357 is the best self defense round in a handgun, you can push those things up 1500 fps. I think, I can't find any 125gr velocities in my chronograph data, but I have 158's at 1250 fps.

The difference in momentum between a 158 at 1250 fps and a 250 gr bullet at 900 fps, the larger and heavier bullet will have a bit more momentum, but I really doubt it means anything on a living being.

The original black powder load for the 45 LC pushed a 255 L at 1000 fps. I have seen chronograph data in magazines, that load is very powerful.

Flip a coin.

 

[bsms]

There is no such thing as knockdown power. There is damage to tissue that may or may not stop someone. If you don't hit something vital, neither will have much knockdown power. If you do, both will have ample knockdown power - but remember, even if you shoot someone in the heart with a 44 Mag, there is enough blood in the brain to allow the person to shoot back for 10-20 seconds. That is long enough to empty a 15 round magazine.

With factory ammo, the 357 will penetrate deeper. That usually isn't a big deal with humans if the ammo you are comparing is a 45.

The truth is that no handgun can be counted on to stop anyone with one shot unless you are lucky enough to hit the brain.

 

[Brian Williams]

Why are we still talking about the "original" Black Powder load. When a 45 Colt is loaded to today's standards, with today's projectiles and in today's guns we will have much more stopping power than any 357.

these specs from Buffalo Bore
BUFFALO-BARNES LEAD-FREE .45 Colt +P Ammo - 225 gr. Barnes XPB 1,500 fps.
225 gr at 1500fps is nothing to sneeze at.

 

[Greg528iT]

Seeing as how you're pretty much limited to the original ~12k PSI loads for the .45 Colt in that particular gun

WHAT particular gun? Was there an edit I didn't see?
Buy a Ruger Black Hawk and one can way exceed 12k psi.

 

[JohnBT]

I don't think Buffalo Bore wants you shooting that load in a Colt single action. They don't list it.

I'm assuming from the barrel length it's a SAA. - "colt single action 4 and 5/8 bbl."

John

 

[ljnowell]

With factory ammo, the 357 will penetrate deeper. That usually isn't a big deal with humans if the ammo you are comparing is a 45.

Wouldnt bet on that, too much variation in factory loadings. I have seen factory 255 lswc completely pentetrate a deer. Not little deer either, these are big midwestern corn fed deer.

 

[BSA1]

The 45 Colt wins hands down. You can not deny that a big bore lets air in and blood out whereas the 357 relys on the unreliable probability of expansion of the hollow point to gain maximum performance.

The 45 Colt was THE magnum cartridge of its day until the advent of the 357. i feel it's large size, history of it's evolution and attitudes of society contributed to it's demise rather than shortcomings of the cartridge itself.

 

[coolluke01]

Can a Colt SAA clone take full house loads? Or would you have to go with a Blackhawk to have full power in a SAA?

 

[USSR]

With factory ammo, the 357 will penetrate deeper.

Not necessarily. Totally depends upon bullet weight and construction. I used to hunt with Winchester's 145gr Silvertip ammo in .357 Magnum, but found little penetration with this round unless it was a thru-the-ribs shot. With handgun rounds, bullet weight and construction is much more important than velocity. Just MHO.

Don

 

[USSR]

Can a Colt SAA clone take full house loads? Or would you have to go with a Blackhawk to have full power in a SAA?

No. With a Colt SAA clone, stick to standard .45LC pressure levels.

Don

 

[Gryffydd]

WHAT particular gun? Was there an edit I didn't see?
Buy a Ruger Black Hawk and one can way exceed 12k psi.

OP said (and still says--no edit):

gun in question colt single action 4 and 5/8 bbl

And I'm quite aware of the capabilities of the 45 Colt in a Blackhawk. See post #4.

 

[skeeziks]

I'm assuming from the barrel length it's a SAA. - "colt single action 4 and 5/8 bbl.

JohnBT.... The barrel length would be 4 3/4" not 4 5/8".

Colt SAA = 4 3/4"
Ruger Vaquero = 4 5/8"

 

[Lawdawg45]

Don't sell the old .45 short. A blunt 250-grain slug at 900 fps is perfectly capable of wrecking your entire day.

The British pretty well solved the problem of bullet effectiveness on human beings over 250 years ago with their "Heavy ball/Light charge" approach in the smoothbore musket which launched a 3/4 inch diameter ball at around 800 fps. Due to the set-piece tactics of the day, they weren't concerned with trajectories or even precise accuracy. All they wanted was to put their man down. Pictures from the American Civil War bear grisly testament to what damage was inflicted on a human limb by a 500-grain Minie' that left the muzzle at a nominal 960 fps.

Heavy ball. Light charge. The formula was frighteningly effective in 1750, and it still is.

Exactly. The 250 grain JHP traveling around 950 fps was the perfect Elmer Keith SD load. Anyone willing to argue with him on that?

LD

 

[skeeziks]

With both loaded up to max, the .45 Colt wins easily.
The .45 Colt can be loaded to exceed the .44 Mag. and everyone knows the .44 outperforms the .357 Mag.

End of story....

 

[black_powder_Rob]

@ skeeziks that maybe true if both are loaded up to max, but op said the gun was a colt single action with a 4 and 5/8 barrel, if he is talking about the SAA then most (as far as I know will) will not take a full house 45 load, i am not sure about the .357.



also keep in mind that those black powder loads that went over the 1000 fps were with a 7 inch barrel in a ballon head case that held the 40 grs of bp. I am not saying the 357 would have more knock down power, just wondering if these things were accounted for.