.357 Performance out of a 2" barrel

[1911Tuner]

I didn't look up anything, Ruger. I didn't have to. I'm not too well versed in Quantum physics...but I've got a solid handle on Newton.

And I changed the subject because the thread was drifting and I wanted to get it back on track with something relevant to the question.

To wit:

What does a hundred feet per second mean at a range of 10 feet?

Not enough to worry about.

We worry too much over velocity as it equates to performance. Factory ammunition can vary as much as 50 fps...and sometimes more...from shot to shot within a given lot of ammunition.

And no...you were wrong. Inertia isn't Mass X Velocity.

 

[RugerMcMarlin]

BlackSky, The best answer to post #1, in the whole thread, is Post #1. IMO It sounds like you understand the problem just fine.

Back on Thread.

 

[AdamSean]

Give Buffalo Bore tactical .357 magnum a look. Out of a 1 7/8 inch barrel a 158gr load clocked 1050 fps. They are also low flash and low recoil. I am going to be ordering some of these.

 

[JFrame]

Give Buffalo Bore tactical .357 magnum a look. Out of a 1 7/8 inch barrel a 158gr load clocked 1050 fps. They are also low flash and low recoil. I am going to be ordering some of these.

Sounds good -- will give them a look-see.


.

 

[Prosser]

HMMM. Plus P buffalo bore 158s went 1040 fps out of my 360PD.
I settled on Fioochi 148 HP's at 1140 fps. Recoil was the same for both.
Fioochi was a LOT cheaper, and, I like Tim.

Look at beartooth.com for the wound channel calculator. It seems that velocity is REAL important for wound channel, and, expansion should be a plus, not in the process of selection. In other words, worse case, you count on the caliber you pick, with no expansion.

 

[Harley Quinn]

Hard lead is not known for expansion Developed the HP with copper jacket for that trick

Low flash, sure It is a powder moving a piece of lead at over 1000 fps

 

[JFrame]

HMMM. Plus P buffalo bore 158s went 1040 fps out of my 360PD.
I settled on Fioochi 148 HP's at 1140 fps. Recoil was the same for both.
Fioochi was a LOT cheaper, and, I like Tim.

Look at beartooth.com for the wound channel calculator. It seems that velocity is REAL important for wound channel, and, expansion should be a plus, not in the process of selection. In other words, worse case, you count on the caliber you pick, with no expansion.

Keep those suggestions comin', folks!


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[RugerMcMarlin]

"Fiochi is a lot cheaper, and I like Tim" whos Tim? Did he make the bullets or am I gonna have to read all 110 posts to find out?

 

[qcsmitty]

Quote From 1911Tuner: Velocity is overrated. +/- 90-100 fps doesn't mean much in the real world as long as the bullet goes where it needs to go and penetrates far enough to reach what it needs to reach. If it does these things, it'll do. If it doesn't...more speed won't be of much help.

With increased velocity comes increased recoil, making control and accurate followup shots more difficult. Full-power .357 Magnum ammunition in small revolvers makes for a real beast to hang onto in a bad situation. Personally, I wish the ammo makers would offer a .357 round loaded with a 158 grain LSWCHP to an honest 1000 fps from a 3-inch barrel. Ample power for penetration and enough speed to aid expansion that would put it head and shoulders over any .38 +P offering, and much less of a hassle to shoot well.
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That pretty much covers it. Well stated.

 

[zxcvbob]

Personally, I wish the ammo makers would offer a .357 round loaded with a 158 grain LSWCHP to an honest 1000 fps from a 3-inch barrel. Ample power for penetration and enough speed to aid expansion that would put it head and shoulders over any .38 +P offering, and much less of a hassle to shoot well.

You can load that yourself; Magnus bullets #515 (order from Midsouth) with 6 grains of Universal or 231 or AA#2, or 5.5 of Bullseye. But that opens up that other can or worms

 

[ripp]

The 357 is hard to control in 4" barrels, too.

Not just in snubbies. Most people's definition of "controlability" is very liberal, and based upon guesses-ignorance. My standard of minimal controlability is reliable repeat hits on the chest, at 15 ft, in .25 second, measured on an electronic shooting timer. Why? Because any cretin can do that with a .22lr autopistol, and he is quite likely to have such a gun, and maybe even have practiced with it a bit, too. Very, very few people can match that minimal standard with full charge .357 ammo, even if they are using the N frame, L frame or Ruger GP1000.

Truly fast repeat hit times are considerably faster, as in .16 second or less, as seen with the 1911 when used by the top IPSC match shooters, or with 9mm's by less serious shottists. Most people take 3x that long to get repeat hits with a 357, especially a k frame, even if it does have a 4"barrel on it. That is why the 357 loads have been continually watered down, with rare exceptions. The full bore load is 160 grs at 1400 fps in a 4" barrel, folks. not 125 grs at 1450 fps. Just try getting .25 second splits with that load, in a 4"gun. You will waste a lot of time and money trying to do so, I guarantee it.

Full charge ammo ruins k-frame 357 guns in short order. That is why Smith started making the L Frame, you know. back in the 70's, HP White labs tested a couple of Smith M19's,and deemed them both unsafe to fire before they made it to 3000 rds of full charge 357 ammo. Now, maybe you think that 3000 rds is a lot of shooting, but I have had a great many days on which I fired over 1000 rds, and so has any top match shooter.

 

[zxcvbob]

Why do you want to shoot doubles (I think they are called "hammers") with a .357? I practice them with a 9mm because that's what it tends to take with a 9 and I have lots more ammo available.

(not a rhetorical question; if there's a reason for it, that's something else I need to practice) When I carry a .357, it's a 4" and usually has 158 grain .38 Special +P's in it, or somewhat-watered-down 148 grain Magnums.

 

[1911Tuner]

I do load it myself, bob. It's just that I'm a little hesitant to carry home-rolled ammo for social situations.

 

[RugerMcMarlin]

Ripp, you need to shoot more stuff than just targets with a 357. You will find repeat hits on target, with a magnum anything are seldom necessary. You can only make something so dead, after that your wasting ammo. Even if it is at an impressive speed.

Shooting matches is impressive, kitchen or book type?

I agree though, shooting full blown magnum rounds, in an attempt to achieve a quarter second split. Does sound incredibly expensive and useless. I would have just guessed that, probably, without actually doing it.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by RugerMcMarlin: Ripp, you need to shoot more stuff than just targets with a 357. You will find repeat hits on target, with a magnum anything are seldom necessary.

Most people who carry a revolver with a two inch barrel do so for self defense. The idea that the flash, blast, and recoil of a .357 Magnum somehow translate into markedly superior one shot effectiveness on human targets than that of a .38 Special or 9MM with adequate penetration and the same diameter bullet is a myth, debunked in a lot of places and rather effectively here.

More penetration is unlikely to help unless one happens to hit the pelvic bone; higher kinetic energy won't help much, either.

So, why are very fast repeat hits necessary? First, a shot through one lung, or two shots through the same lung, is unlikely to stop a determined assailant unless he or she is predisposed to be stopped. Second, if an attacker at close range is moving very fast, very quick shooting is called for, and it is highly likely that not all shots will be well placed. A firearm with excessive recoil will turn out to be a lot less effective than one that can be fired into a torso target five times in less than one second.

So, what was the original raison d'etre for the .357 Magnum? The load started out a a game hunting round, where additional penetration is very helpful. As 1911Tuner stated in Post#48,

The .357 Magnum's original niche was as an outdoorsman's revolver...not a duty gun. It was housed in a heavy-framed revolver and was loaded to some truly frightening pressures and velocities. Its intent was for close range defense against large animals if the situation warranted...or for killing medium-sized game animals at moderate distances.

It was soon adopted by Highway Patrol units, for whom the ability to shoot through automobile bodies was important. That does not make it the best self defense round.

Personally, I load my J-Magnum revolver with .38 Special ammunition. I would not even consider using magnum loads for self defense.

 

[1911Tuner]

There have been more than a few horror stories of the vaunted .357 Magnum's failure to stop a fight. One in particular stands out. If memory serves me, it was an Illinois state trooper who hit an attacker solidly in the torso at 30 feet with all six rounds, and the guy was able to close the distance and kill the trooper with a .22 pistol with a head shot before he collapsed and died.

 

[RugerMcMarlin]

Your right, your right. I was assuming proper bullet placement. I have always wondered why people buy 357s if they dont trust the cartridge, or think its effective. A round originally designed to kill polar bears or grizzlies sounds like it would work ok for defense.I guess the guys that tried it on bears and it didnt work we wont hear from.

Back to guns, I agree with Tuner using a hand loaded round for defense is dumb from a legal stand point. Much easier to defend a factory loaded round. An extension of this logic might be to shoot the same round the gun specifies on the barrel. Why carry around the extra weight of a magnum revolver, when the round of your choice is 38?

Unless your talking about a Magnum J Frame. Which I don't get at all. And for the same reasons you guys already mentioned.

Like you pointed out, without bullet placement, whats it matter.

If the illinois trooper story is the same one I'm thinking of. It was the incedent Smith & Wesson used to convince the State Patrol if the Trooper had more rounds than 6, hed still be here. About the time they adopted the 39s and 59s.In 9mm, which no matter how many round you have still require proper bullet placement. My Opinion

 

[ironhead7544]

I think the loss of velocity in the short barrel 357 Magnum comes from the 158 gr lead loads. The original load went 1550 fps from an 8 and 3/4 inch barrel. These were very high pressure loads and were reduced some in a few years. When cheaper chronographs came out it was found the 158 gr lead loads were going about 1400 fps from the 8 incher and 1200 fps from a 4 incher. The 2.5 inch 357 revolvers available then went about 1080 fps with this load.

There werent as many powders available back then. Things have changed and now higher velocities can be done.

If I wanted to carry a little 357 lightweight I would use one of the 110 gr loads, CorBon probably. Will give good velocity with reportedly low flash.

For the guys that want to handload the 158 gr HPGC with a soft lead bullet, Rim Rock Bullets sells the one that Buffalo Bore uses.

 

[Prosser]

Tim Sundles=Buffalobore

My experience:
360PD has a warning to not use any bullet under 124 grains on the barrel, screws up the forcing cone.
I did get 125 grain Corbon to go 1204 fps, and, recoil was the same as BB's 158 grain load, Plus P, and the Fioochi 148's at 1131 fps, IIRC.

I just saw a wonderful Martin Fackler picture that showed how hard cast bullets increase frontal area, as the velocity increases from 700-1500 fps.
At 1500 fps, they look like most HP's at lower velocity, sans copper. From that picture, I would conclude that a couple hundred feet of velocity can
have a huge impact on wound channel. First velocity causes the larger wound channel, second the LFN bullet deforms more the faster it goes, creating
a larger wound channel.

As I sit here musing about it, I really wonder if you can't tailor a hard cast bullet, at high velocity, to both deform/expand, plus create a larger wound channel,
and, limit the overall penetration by lightening the bullet?

I'd probably start at 125 grains, and, cast should go faster out of a 2" then JHP, so maybe 1250 fps? 1350 fps would be ideal, but, I'm not sure I can get
that out of a 1.8" barrel, and, if I can, if I'd want to shoot it much.

Those are my reloading thoughts at the moment. Don't know if they will work...

 

[CutMan]

Speer Gold Dot 135gr. .38special +p Short Barrel Personal Protection - Velocity 860fps, Muzzle Energy 222 ft. lbs.
Speer Gold Dot 135gr. .357magnum Short Barrel Personal Protection - Velocity 990fps, Muzzle Energy 294 ft. lbs.

I can't feel the difference between these two out of my M&P340, and I have been experimenting a lot for the perfect round. I'll go with the ones with the better specs since they cost the same and have no difference in comfort. The test barrel length on all of those specs is two inches.

http://www.speer-ammo.com/ballistics/ammo.aspx

 

[mossberg835]

depends on if you are worried about if it will do the job or pass some kind of test with a chronograph devised by some bean counter type.

 

[RugerMcMarlin]

When you start chasing better expansion, remember soft lead, leads up the barrel faster,
and or strips on the rifling, just shaves the sides of the bullet off , with no spin. Keyhole at 12 feet.

Can get some fudge factor with gas checks.


(heres where I get a Metallurgy lesson)

 

[Harley Quinn]

There have been more than a few horror stories of the vaunted .357 Magnum's failure to stop a fight. One in particular stands out. If memory serves me, it was an Illinois state trooper who hit an attacker solidly in the torso at 30 feet with all six rounds, and the guy was able to close the distance and kill the trooper with a .22 pistol with a head shot before he collapsed and died.

True about 357M, problems in shooting, controling and failure in training

The Newhall incident...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newhall_massacre

Above link is just one of many...The 357 M is/was at the heart of the problem...

The 357M for most, is way to much recoil, even in the bigger heavier models

Punching holes in people is important, but accuracy is paramont... Some people are dedicated, in desire to kill LEOs, it seems...

Regards

 

[Seven For Sure]

Keep those suggestions comin', folks!


.

Federal 140 gr. Barnes HP's. Perfect for short barreled 357's. The bullet is very long for a 140 due to 100% copper construction. You get a middleweight bullet that's tough yet expands without a ton of blast. I keep these in my 3" 686+ and they are some of the most accurate factory loads I've come across. The box claims 1400 from a 4".

 

[oldfool]

"I have always wondered why people buy 357s if they don't trust the cartridge"

for use in lever action carbines, of course

(color me on the side of those who think extra boost is best done with extra barrel length, and absent that, do the very best you can to put 'em where they count most, which happens best with whatever recoil you can run fast double taps with, cause if you get a tad excited, the 1st one fired just might not)