Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by [holo], Jan 24, 2021.
I converted a G21 to 400corbon and a G29 to 9x25dillon. They can put up with the pressure.
In the momentus extrimus, when the white elephant rears its begotten hooves, neither will be noticed.
We had issue Glock 35’s. (About 200 of them) Gen 3. Most of them were peening. It appeared the locking block rocked up and smacked the underside of the slide as you said.
Every once in a while one would need to be stoned down. Seemed to be self limiting...
As I recall, we rounded off the front of a couple locking blocks and, it seemed to stop it.
Probably as well as an aluminum framed pistol like a Sig. Funny Beretta never jumped on the caliber, maybe they tried and failed?
That's the impression I got from alot of guys about the Sig. +P+ 9mm for all intents and purposes. I see +P+ 9mm for sale at my local haunts about as much as I see .357Sig which is never.. I did like the idea of it and if I found ammo for it more regularly I might have sprung for one because I was interested in .357 Sig for a while, something about the venerable street cred of a 125gr .357 Dia going 1300+, but if you're already knee deep in 9mm the juice isn't necessarily worth the squeeze.
I dunno. I can "squeeze" over 1400fps from a 125gr GD and BE-86 in a 4" Glock just by following Alliant's data.
A big part of why I went back to 9mm was the realization that the supposed "extra" power the 357SIG was "supposed" to have, just really wasnt there. The skyrocketing cost of ammo and components at the time, and what was going on with my 31 just cinched things.
When I first got into the round, I got all caught up in the hype, and it took me a while and a little prodding from a couple of people to realize that it was really more of a paper numbers thing, than it was anything else. Seems for a lot of people, those paper numbers are important, and I think mostly because it lets their choice "win", at least on paper. I felt that way at first too. Hey, it looked like a hot round, and hot has to be better, and the numbers prove it, right?
Its been a while since I got rid of mine, and about that time, some were pushing the envelope a bit more with some of the boutique loadings, but I think its still going to be pretty much limited to what it is/was, and the bit extra some are ringing out of it, really arent really changing things.
I wrote Speer at the time asking just that, and basically was told that it and +P+ 9mm were both at their limits pressure wise, and would give very similar results. They are both still pistol rounds and a slight shift in velocity of one over the other, isnt going to bring about some miraculous change in how they perform. So what are you really gaining, other than maybe more wear on the gun?
I liked the 357SIG, but other than the "bark", and then later, the cost, I really didnt see it was any different than 9mm, and in any of the loadings while shooting.
When you shoot a lot, and I guess even if you dont, the price of ammo becomes an issue, and when 357SIG more than doubled in a short period of time, and even the components shot up, that quickly made it a questionable choice. At one point, it was only a $1 a box more to buy factory, and reloading wanst really worth it, that changed pretty quick, and reloading became more appealing, but even then, with caliber specific components being more expensive than standard 9mm, there was really no advantage there either.
Hey, if you like the round and dont mind paying the premium to shoot it, your good. If youre thinking of getting into it, Id suggest looking at it a little closer, unless its just for the fun of it and you feel like fooling around with something new. I recently fell into a deal on a gun of another round of about the same time, the 45GAP and Ive been playing with that for just that reason, Im bored and its something to play with.
Bad news there is, it too uses small pistol primers and the way things are there these days, its at the bottom of the line priority wise, when it comes to allotment. 9mm gets shot the most, and first choice.
@AK103K I think the question of velocity vs performance is a very interesting one. Take a given design of projectile and run it at a range of velocities and you get a range of results. Whilst we could say .357 Sig performance over 9mm +P+ is negligible, we could also say the same for 9mm +P+ vs 9mm +P. And the same for 9mm +P vs 9mm. But the difference between 9mm (non +P) and .357 Sig is more substantial in terms of velocity.
Should we say that velocity isn't important, and that all that is really important is the FBI pass/fail testing? Maybe we should say that we need to see video of the cartridge's terminal performance in gel for ourselves. Maybe we want real world results (as messy and unscientific as they are). Maybe we want to see some seismic testing on gel blocks to see what the energy transfer is, comparing one cartridge to another.
If velocity doesn't matter, does depth of penetration matter? And if so, do we say 18" is better than 12" in ballistic gel, or is 15" ideal? Does expansion matter, and if so is a perfect mushroom better or worse than 5 or 6 petals meeting the same diameter?
It's a complicated subject. I can't say I have any solid answers. But I do believe that higher velocity is better for a given projectile, though I cannot quantify it.
And to be perfectly honest, I didn't step up to .357 Sig from 9mm. I stepped sideways from .40, and did so for the extra penetration potential available on 4-legged creatures.
I think its more important to find the gun/caliber combo that lets you shoot quickly, repetitively, and accurately. That gun is the one you want. The caliber really isnt an issue here either (other than cost limiting your practice), as long as it doesnt slow your shooting down, or limit your capacity.
The subject can be a complicated as you want to make it I guess, but it doesnt have to be.
I think the idea that all service cartridges are inherently equal is dubious at best. There are a lot of people preaching the concept, but so far I have yet to see any conclusive evidence that it's true.
Obviously there are more important factors to a successful stop than the cartridge chosen. But we also have to acknowledge that if fast accurate hits were all that counted, we'd all be carrying .22s.
And yes, there is no such thing as a magic handgun caliber. But listening to some people talk about 9mm, you'd think it actually was the magical caliber. Low recoil, high capacity, easy to make fast accurate hits with, and just as good at wounding as any other service caliber.
And yes, your also correct that it doesn't have to be complicated. Pick what works for you. I did, and so did you. So maybe we should both get back to the subject of the thread.
Not long ago I bought 5" .357 Sig barrels for my Beretta 92x Performance (with a .40 slide) and my 6" long slide 10mm 1911. I can't wait till I can work up and chronograph some loads.
To me the advantage of .357 sig over .40 is that since I reload it costs me almost the same thing as 9mm to load, and I can use the same bullets (124g hollow points). It's maybe 1c more per round than 9mm for the extra gunpowder. .40 costs me about 3-4c more per round than 9mm due to the more expensive bullets and more powder.
For me, 9mm is more fun to shoot. I could probably go through 1000 rounds and not feel anywhere near as fatigued as a few hundred of .357 sig or .40.
It's a matter of compromises. Otherwise why not just carry a 50AE Desert Eagle and be done with it. Cost of ammo and ability to get enough training in also factors into the equation. Then when it comes to agencies deciding, they don't want to pick a round that will be hard for most of their agents to qualify on. If they can't qualify, then it's probably asking too much for them to be effective with that caliber out in the field. Then again, why do agencies need to standardize on just one caliber?
Exactly. Compromise. Now I can understand why some agencies choose the 9mm as their compromise, lowest common denominator and all that. Individuals don't have to compromise down to what someone else can handle; each person can choose for themselves. Which is why I take issue with this line that 9mm is the perfect solution. It's not perfect for everyone.
Logistics, consistency and liability.
It’s a lot easier to supply an agency of 20, much less 200 or 2,000, with one practice round and one duty round from one supplier. (I know, I do just that every year for our 60 when I order ammo.)
Its a lot less taxing on training staff to learn and then have to teach one firearm manual of arms using a handgun (or family of similars like Xd, Glock, SIG, etc) or rifle/shotgun that fills the needs of the various units and takes into account the wide variety of experience, their desire to train and the various body types that humans have. Our little group varies from 6’6” 275 lbs to 5’0” and 100 ( maybe) pounds. For us the Glock 19 is issued, but the larger guy carries a Glock 17 because it fits his hands better.
It’s much less difficult to have your trainers and firearms experts defend your tax dollars on the stand explaining a consistency of training and equipment when the agency ( read the public’s piggy bank) is sued for money in almost every LE shooting... whether it was an unjustified act by the cop or it’s 10,000 percent righteous when the shooting was stopping murderers in the process of killing others.
As individuals or families we don’t need to think too hard about these things. We are pretty much free to shoot what we want, when we want, how we want in any caliber we want. Of them all, the .357 Sig is an excellent semi-auto choice for field carry, hiking and home-self defense.
As agency procurement, liability and training managers, we do have to worry about these things...and the larger the agency, the bigger the headaches .
Going with this line of thinking, other than maybe cost, why havent they just gone with 357SIG then? Its just as easy to shoot with as 9mm for most people, and if it offers so much more, youre golden.
Back in the early 2000's, prior to Obama getting in, it cost the exact same as 40 S&W ($250/1000) when bought by the case. The change there, is probably the biggest issue with it now. 40 S&W went up a little after the Obama scare, but 357SIG for some reason nearly tripled, and never came back down to 40 prices. Even when cheap, both were still a pretty good jump up from 9mm.
9mm has always been the cheapest, both in ammo and components, and likely will remain that way compared to most of the others and in this case, is really its big advantage. That, and in some cases, maybe lack of or less wear on the guns.
I really havent been following it much since I stopped using it. Have they come up with more realistic animal loads with heavier bullets for it, or is the 125 grain loading still about the heaviest? My understanding has always been, its basically a one-trick pony, meant to mimic the old 125 grain 357Mag load everyone used to gush about, and if youre a paper numbers guy, it doesnt even actually do that. Came close though.
Err, says who? Not me.
9mm is my minimum, regardless of area. That said, I carry bigger; either a Glock 23/32 or a 1911 lightweight CMD 45 is on my belt everywhere.
The FBI said “We want a round that penetrates X number inches and will penetrate the following barriers. We also don’t want it to over penetrate under any of those conditions.
Ammo makers said: “That’s what you want? We’ll make it happen”.
Now, All service calibers preform exactly the same, under all conditions. Therefore, they are all equal!
Well, yes. They were designed to.
Also, of note, the Sig P239 in 357 Sig, has a distinctly heavier slide than its 9mm counterpart. Which leads me to believe it was designed for a more powerful round. Not simply a 9mm +P+ Fired in a traditional 9mm platform.
I can develop a test with criteria that will prove one round is greatly superior to another. Then change a few parameters and prove that’s the worst round.
Poke a hole. Poke the biggest hole you can. Poke it all the way through is about as good as it gets. (Preferably, running out of gas as soon as it exits).
I did it in a HK P2000 with a 3.6" barrel using Longshot. I was trying to duplicate the Speer 125 GD Law enforcement ammo I carry. I ended up throttling down a bit to mimic the Seer load.
I used my P2K in a Dave Spaulding Vehicular Combatives class during the shoot through the windshield from inside the vehicle portion. Even with ear pro on it's not something one should do often. The "blast" when working around cover/barriers is also unique.
A little over a year ago, my LGS had Sig Sauer 125 gr. FMJ $25/50 and Winchester 125 gr. FMJ $35/50. That was the only time I bought any 357SIG ammo. The rest I reload for.
1) It is a poor choice for a barrel length >5". The large volume of very high pressure gas accelerating a relatively small bullet needs more time to act. A 7.62x51 NATO with a 10" barrel has LESS muzzle energy than a 7.62x39 with a 10" barrel because the powder in the .308 is slower burning in order to a take advantage of a longer barrel which, in this example, isn't there. Most handguns have a 4-4.5" barrel.
2) Factory loads don't really take advantage of the case. A 9mm +P will get very close to the factory ammo that comprises most .357 Sig loads. 10mm factory loads offer very little beyond .40 S&W because they're essentially loaded like the .40. Handloading the .357 Sig reveals a TON of horsepower left over, but getting access to that requires you to roll your own.
3) For SD, a bullet that expands more is more valuable than a bullet which has more energy. Thus, a .40 which can expand to .65" is more effective against most SD targets than a 147 grain .355" bullet which will expand to 0.5". Even if the 9mm bullet is faster, penetration beyond 18" is a liability, not a virtue.
I say all of that as someone who believes that it's the best modern handgun caliber, and very nearly the most powerful; 10mm requires grips that tend to be uncomfortable for people with smaller hands, while the .460 Rowland requires a muzzle device for safe operation. However, .357 Sig has a lot of caveats and it doesn't lend itself to SD or concealable firearms. On the flip side, a P226 X5 with 147 grain hollow points is one of the few autoloaders that will adequately stop a large and angry predator. You can judge for yourself from https://www.ammoland.com/2020/03/update-handgun-or-pistol-against-bear-attack-93-cases-97-effective/, but it appears that the people using .380, 9mm and 9mm Makarov are using a lot of ammo and generally succeeding if the bear leaves (whether it dies later of its wounds isn't really germane if you become its last meal).
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