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357 verus 45 ACP etc. etc. Stopping Power

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by Turk, Jan 27, 2008.

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  1. Turk

    Turk Member

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    Everyone has an opinion as to what caliber is the best stopper self-defense against two legged predators but what does hard data show. I'm especally interested in seeing what the 357 sig. has done. Also is there any LEO agencies carring the 357 sig?

    Thanks,

    Turk
     
  2. shooter429

    shooter429 Member

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    I quit trying to keep up with the latest and greatest years ago

    My best recollection and my interpollation included :

    No.1 manstopper per 1 shot stop percentages and with a long street record is:

    .357 Magnum 125 Grain JHP out of a service revolver

    With stopping power that was rated at 96% (which is where they had the tac shotguns and rifles starting if I recall)

    No. 2. was .45 ACP +P in 230 grain and some 185 grain +p versions. Hard to argue with a shining service record of a century.

    No. 3. (around 90%) switches between 9 and .40, but I think fully stoked modern .40 has a clear advantage over 9mm +p now

    My favorite: .44 Rem Mag med. velocity is like #7 on the list, which tells me that either Elmer was a fool or the list is not perfect.

    The most important thing once you have enough power to disrupt vitals, is the accuracy to disrupt the vitals. All of the aforementioned calibers will do that on the average BG

    Pick the most powerful cartridge you can shoot well and then practice practice practice, and quit looking for magical bullets.

    Shooter429
     
  3. LKB3rd

    LKB3rd Member

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    I use .45 because if one shot doesn't stop them, 2,3, and 4 shots can follow in seconds.
    .357 has more recoil and would cause immediate hearing damage if fired indoors, even if it has a couple percentage points great "stopping power." When i carry my .357, i load it with +p .38 special. Follow up shots are easier and more manageable, and accurate (i can fire .357 accurately at the range when i am calm, cool, and collected, but don't trust myself to be those things if fighting for my life, and if every trigger pull produced a deafening noise.. flinch o rama).
    ah crud. you meant .357 sig, not magnum, huh?
     
  4. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator

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    deleted - duh. reread post.

    .45 over .357 Sig
     
  5. BikerRN

    BikerRN member

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    I have two "favorite" handgun calibers for Self Defense, but use three calibers.

    My two favs are the .357 Magnum and the 45 ACP. Between the .357 Sig, which TX DPS carries and the 45 ACP I would go with the ACP because it's an easier round to shoot, for me. The .357 Sig was designed to "mimic' the .357 Magnum in an autopistol. To that end it seems to do a pretty good job and has not been found "wanting".

    Personally I put no "absolute faith" in any round, rifle, shotgun or handgun.

    BikerRN
     
  6. Soybomb

    Soybomb Member

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    There is no way to get "hard data" for this. There are too many variables to come up with anything meaningful. Handguns all suck, load it with big name ammo and be sure you can put the rounds where they need to go.
     
  7. CWL

    CWL Member

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    I believe that the Texas State Troopers are issued .357Sig.

    US Air Marshalls are also issued .357Sigs. They are trained for headshots with this caliber in the confines of an aircraft cabin.
     
  8. HM2PAC

    HM2PAC Member

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    Maine IFW (Inland Fisheries & Wildlife) are issued the .357SIG. Sig pistols, I'm not sure which model.

    I've seen a close range .357SIG injury, real big wound.
     
  9. Timthinker

    Timthinker Member

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    Turk, I asked a similar question in a thread begun last week. One of the contributors to that thread, tipoc, kindly listed some studies relevant to this issue. You may wish to visit the thread on trustworthy statistics to retrieve that information. I suggest that you review studies conducted by Martin Fackler, a U.S. Army doctor, on this topic. He presents some interesting information about ballistics in general that should interest you. I hope this helps.


    Timthinker
     
  10. tblt

    tblt member

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    357 sig is a hoped up 9mm which is ok
    357 mag does have more stopping power 158 gr.
     
  11. sm

    sm member

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    1.Shot Placement
    2.When it your time to get stopped.

    These two factors have always trumped caliber debates, platforms from which they are fired, and bullet design.

    Applies to self defense, and hunting.
     
  12. Timthinker

    Timthinker Member

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    Turk, the .357 Magnum performs better with longer barrel lengths as you no doubt realize. When examining the various studies, I would pay attention to barrel length as well as the type of ammo used.

    One factor that may not be mentioned is the blast and recoil effect. A 10mm auto or .44 Magnum produces more of those features, making a quick followup shot more difficult for some people. This is unrelated to a "one-stop" torso shot, but it may come into play if successive rounds need to be fired quickly. At the very least, this is something people should consider when selecting a self-defense firearm. Again, I hope this information is useful.


    Timthinker
     
  13. makarovnik

    makarovnik Member

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    I believe the .357 magnum is better. Especially if the bad guy is hiding behind a shield of some sort. The .45 works great most of the time against targets not wearing armor and the recoil isn't that bad either.
     
  14. 762plinkster

    762plinkster Member

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    Unless they have changed things. The Secret service carries a Sig p226 in .357 sig. and awhile back a friend of mine said that the barrel on that Gun was made to limit recoil. but i think this round is harder to find and thus harder to practice with. the 45 is a good all around caliber. Not too many LE agencies will carry it because its an exspensive round. A 40 call will do just about the same thing and is more availble
     
  15. 351 WINCHESTER

    351 WINCHESTER Member

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    The .357 is the winner with 125 gr. remington or federal even from a 2.5" bbl. I had 2 model 66's with 2.5" bbl. Too much recoil/muzzle blast for me. I got rid of them. My 1911 is much easier to control if follow up shots are needed and, well, it's a .45.
     
  16. ArchAngelCD

    ArchAngelCD Member

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    Like posted above, the 125gr .357 Magnum is a proven man stopper with many decades of data to back it up. At #2 the .45 ACP will do a great job too. I would say carrying either will give you an edge and it all comes down to personal preference. (I prefer the .357 Magnum)
     
  17. MechAg94

    MechAg94 Member

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    I agree with others:

    LOCATION! LOCATION! LOCATION! :D

    I think it is more important to pick the gun that gives you the best chance to shoot quickly and accurately. The circumstances may change depending on your situation. A carry gun or a hide out house gun might be different choices.

    That said, performance will change if you are talking about a short barreled carry gun versus a full size 6" barrel.
     
  18. Michael Courtney

    Michael Courtney Member

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    Even with comparable shot placement, there will be more variations between different loads in the same cartridge than there is between the best loads in the different cartridges (comparing .357 with .45).

    And shot placement itself is so important that I would give the edge for any given shooter to gun that a given shooter can shoot more accurately under time pressure.

    Given the limitations inherent in service caliber handguns, the best loads in each caliber are at the upper end of the available performance range.

    Michael Courtney
     
  19. moooose102

    moooose102 Member

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    i have a 45 acp for ccw, my wife has a 40 s&w. either, imho, will stop most anybody with 1 or 2 shots, which are easily accomplishid thanks to being auto loaders. i do not really know much about the 357 sig. but for what it is worth, the 45 acp was developed SPECIFFICLY for stopping humans, and the 40 s&w is used by the vast majority of govenment law enforcement agencies. what do they need to do? stop humans. i do know that some l.e.a. carry the .357 sig. why, i am not sure. but one factor you need to consider is the cost of ammo. you are not a government agency, and to be proficiant with whatever you choose, you are going to NEED to shoot, a lot. so dont forget to figure that into the equasion. just my opinion.
     
  20. tblt

    tblt member

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    9 mm +p will stop most humans Federal HST awsome round
     
  21. mgregg85

    mgregg85 Member

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    I do believe that the Secret Service uses the .357 sig.
     
  22. gym

    gym member

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    Big slow bullet, trumps small fast one, more knockdown power.
     
  23. gbran

    gbran Member

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    gym

    You are right, at least in this 357 sig v. 45 acp debate. Big and slow v. smaller and faster.

    I got rid of my lightweight .357"s and believe it or not, I actually do carry a Colt Series 80 most of the year as my ccw. It's a pussycat to shoot compared to my last 357 roscoe.
     
  24. BlindJustice

    BlindJustice Member

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    shot placement & ready to shoot again ...

    Let's see
    the endless debates of the decades

    Semi-AUto Platforms
    9MM vs .45 ACP
    then 10MM auto is adopted but FBI rejects and up comes
    the .40 S&W splitting the differences

    Revolvers vs Semi-AUtos
    .357 Mag vs .45 ACP
    then neck down the.40 S&W
    and it gets blurred
    .357 SIg. vs .45 ACP

    hey, notice something?

    .45 ACP is the yardstick

    That said, I shoot the .45 ACP better in my
    1911 than my 625 but shoot them both better
    than my 686P 4" with WW 125 JHP it has a BIG
    lightening bolt of muzzle flash, and sloer to get back
    on target.... but that's just me.

    Here's another to throw in the mix... since the O.P.
    wants to play with souped up bottlenickers

    .400 CorBpn 155 gr. SPeer GD JHP @ 1400 fps or
    the same eweight bullet Hornady XTPJHP @ 1360 FPS

    just like beer YbottleneckMV

    Momentum explained easy look at
    Federal ballistics,
    .357 Magnum 125 gr. at 1450 muzzle is 200+ less at 100 yards
    .45 ACP 230 gr. 870 fps muzzle but at 100 yards it's still 800+ fps

    and I bet you in organic material it;s the same velocity loss ratio
    but the .45 is .45 at the starting line...



    Check Federal ballistics for a .357 mag.
     
  25. Harley Quinn

    Harley Quinn Member

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    I like um all anyone of them is a killer in my hands, why? Because I shoot and practice and can hit what I aim at. Try it you will be much more confident with what you have in your hand. I like the 9mm at times with +P ammo and hi cap mags. Some times I have my G17 on me or my G22 in 40 or 357 or my G21 in 400 corbon 10mm or the good old 45 cal:p Depends on the amount of clothing I have on...:D This is for human consideration ;)
     
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