357 vs 30-30 (brush-busting-whitetail rifle)

[CraigC]

And I would take neither for that role. Ever.

Either cartridge would do perfectly fine for small game but not with your deer load.

 

[6.5x55swedish]

for a 200 yard shot the 30-30 is going to be a poor choice as well. You will have to choose your ammo carefully or at 200 yards you will be at 500 fp and 8 inches low.... Neither a good combo for deer.

I have a handi-rifle in 223 that has taken many deer... with the caliper option of that gun I would consider something fast like a 22-250

 

[CraigC]

for a 200 yard shot the 30-30 is going to be a poor choice as well. You will have to choose your ammo carefully or at 200 yards you will be at 500 fp and 8 inches low.... Neither a good combo for deer.

Oh please, 200yds is a chipshot for the .30-30.

 

[1stmarine]

Chipsot?



It is nice to have a good sense of humor....

http://www.hornady.com/store/30-30-Win-160-gr-Z-MAX/

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[CraigC]

Uh, yeah. Or have I stumbled into a "you need a .300Mag to shoot deer at 200yds" discussion???

 

[helotaxi]

for a 200 yard shot the 30-30 is going to be a poor choice as well. You will have to choose your ammo carefully or at 200 yards you will be at 500 fp and 8 inches low.... Neither a good combo for deer.

The 8" is easily accounted for and the 500fpe number is way off. The Speer 150gn bullet at 2300fps is about 7.5" down at 200 with a 100yd zero but the energy is just shy or 1000lb. The Hornady FTX Leverevolution reduces that to 6.7" and keeps the energy up over 1100fpe at 200. With a 150yd zero, the FTX load keeps 200yds within point blank range. More important than energy though is the fact that the bullet is still within its performance envelope. Doesn't really matter how much energy the bullet is carrying if it fails to expand and makes a caliber sized hole right through the deer.

 

[RPRNY]

The 30-30 loaded for the Handi with spitzer bullets is perfectly capable of 200 yard accuracy. You can't use SAAMI spec ammo ballistics and loads safe for 100 year old lever guns to judge performance in a rifle that can (with an SB2 receiver) be safely loaded to 65,000 psi. Getting 2600 fps with 150 gr spitzer and Leverevolution powder or even Varget is not a stretch.

But again, 35-30/30 is the answer to the OP's quest.

 

[WVRJ]

I have a 1894 Marlin in 357,and with 180 gr Partitions,it is a 100 yard deer round,period.The 30-30 with good handloads with pointed bullets should be able to swing a 200 yard shot.I have done it several times with my 7X30 Waters Contender carbine.Forget it with the blunt 357 bullets and at the velocities the cartridge will turn.

 

[1stmarine]

People hunted for many generations with the lever rifles like the Winchester rifles from the 1866 to the famous 1894 with cartridges like the 44-40,
38-55, etc.. and the 30-30 itself and took more deer than we would ever dream to take.
Now all the sudden some feel we need a bazooka to harvest deer.

Neither the bull nor the hunter read current hunting magazines or they'd know that 30-30 bullets bounce off any animal larger than jack rabbits..



The 30-30 and hornady loads do very well. All those nonsense 'technicalities' are worthless.
Read less and practice more.

 

[Steel Talon]

For me to answer correctly I First need to know what does a ("brush-busting-whitetail rifle") mean to you?

 

[6.5x55swedish]

For those of you who have poor comprehension skills I am going to re-highlight my post.

You will have to choose your ammo carefully or at 200 yards you will be at 500 fp and 8 inches low.... Neither a good combo for deer.

Off course the 8 inch drop and 500is fp isn't the rule, which is why I said choose carefully.

People recommended hornady for his 200 yard shot... So the OP walks into the sport shop to buy a box of shells... says to the 16 year old in the ammo dept... "I was told to buy hornady shells for my 30-30, but I don't remember what type... they go to the shelf and the options are"
150 gr RN interlock
160 gr evolution
170 gr FP interlock

The 160 is the only one that puts out more than 1000 fp at 200 yards so he has a 2-1 chance of grabbing the wrong ammo.... And guess what isn't printed on the box? The ballistic information.

Nobody needs to get their panties in a bunch thinking I was downplaying the 30-30...My first rifle was a 30-30 and it is a good gun, but it has limitations...(brush busting being one of them) The average sportsman can't make a good 200 yd shot with a 30-30... so an obvious beginner should not be encouraged to do so.

 

[CraigC]

The average sportsman can't make a good 200 yd shot with a 30-30... so an obvious beginner should not be encouraged to do so.

Hogwash. If you can't be bothered to learn enough about ballistics to be able to make a 200yd shot with the .30-30, you probably shouldn't be in the woods in the first place.

 

[6.5x55swedish]

I consider this guy above average... he has over 880 shooting videos uploaded.

As you can see.. the first shot is a clean miss.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-E2wtbTrLi8

 

[R.W.Dale]

30-30 by far. 200 yards is easily within range for a 30-30, 200 is a FAR stretch for most handgun rounds. The drop is significant, and the energy is WAY down compared to 30-30.

While as a comparison to 30-30 this is absolutely factual I'd like to point out that from a carbine even at an extreme range of 200yds 357 magnum is a great deal more powerful than you might expect.

Just for example my pet load for 158g bullets leaves the muzzle of a 22" rolling block at appx 1800fps. At 200y downrange that bullet is still moving just shy of 1200 which just happens to be what the load gets at the muzzle of a 6" revolver.

Or in other words just accounting for terminal ballistics shooting a deer at 200 with a 357 rifle is like sticking the barrel of a revolver against its hide and pulling the trigger.

I still think that for the rifles listed though reaming the 357 to Maximum would be the more appealing option for me. (Why I'm waiting on an encore bbl) I had one in the past and even without much load development it was putting out 500fps + over 357mag in the same bbl and can still shoot two other cartridges.




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[jwrowland77]

I would say .30-30 just because of the round nose bullet that can punch through briars.

I use a 7mm rem mag hand loaded with Hornady RN bullets since I hunt briars.

 

[R.W.Dale]

I would say .30-30 just because of the round nose bullet that can punch through briars.
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I'm going to say this respectfully first as others will probably be less so addressing this claim but with all due respect bullets speed or shape having an effect on deflection through vegetation is an absolute myth.




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[Dr.Rob]

RW Dale... with handloading a lot more is possible. The 357 also suffers from stubby bullets with the ballistic profile of a semi wadcutter--great for hard cast hog busting, not so great for long range shooting.

I was thinking about factory ammunition compared side by side.

I know that I used to shoot bowling pins at 250 yards with ease with a Marlin 30-30 lever gun. (Recall the drop was domething like 7 inches.. hold at the top of the pin, still hit it.) With my 44 mag 1894 marlin, it's like I can't hold high enough to make a hit at 150. There's a substantial rainbow like trajectory for many of those pistol rounds. A scope makes a big difference, but still more up and down in the pistol rounds than rifle rounds.

I know for sure you can kill an antelope at range with a 30-30.

 

[RPRNY]

I'm going to say this respectfully first as others will probably be less so addressing this claim but with all due respect bullets speed or shape having an effect on deflection through vegetation is an absolute myth.

True-dat. You have to grease 'em with hawg fat first. THEN, they'll slide right through the brush.



If you do decide to go 357 in the Handi, unless you have a 357 Mag revolver, there's no NEED to ream to Max. The Max case is designed to ensure that hot loaded 357 isn't put into a revolver. With the exception of using the absolutely heaviest bullets, you can load Max in a 357 Mag case for the Handi. Of course, if you pop your clogs and the wife gives your handloads to a friend....

 

[R.W.Dale]

True-dat. You have to grease 'em with hawg fat first. THEN, they'll slide right through the brush.



If you do decide to go 357 in the Handi, unless you have a 357 Mag revolver, there's no NEED to ream to Max. The Max case is designed to ensure that hot loaded 357 isn't put into a revolver. With the exception of using the absolutely heaviest bullets, you can load Max in a 357 Mag case for the Handi. Of course, if you pop your clogs and the wife gives your handloads to a friend....

Maximum brass yeilds a quite substantial increase in case capacity that's necessary to achieve the numbers it produces. Its not "just longer to not fit" in a magnum. The assertion that you can load Max data in mag brass is a patently false and dangerous one.


As previously stated you have the case capacity to use almost 10 more grains of powder with maximum brass over mags and the resulting velocity boost that entails. Magnums cannot even come close to these performance levels. A maximum case is actually longer than the Max COL for magnums.

The conversion to Max from mag is little more than renting a reamer for $60 and about 10 minutes




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[shafter]

For what you want to do with it I'd say 30-30 is best. I like to use my 357 levergun for whitetails but where I hunt 100 yards is the absolute max.

 

[1stmarine]

Or in other words just accounting for terminal ballistics shooting a deer at 200 with a 357 rifle is like sticking the barrel of a revolver against its hide and pulling the trigger.

Very good analogy.
...And the 30.30 FTX at 200 yards would be like putting an AK47 with a 150gr load against the deer's hide and pulling the trigger. Or my 44 magnum for similar effects. But No! that would not even put a scratch on the game! lol!!
If is not able to compensate for a couple of moa or three then they should not be hunting.

I regret didn't attend the youtube or facebook university. So many 'experts' in there. LOL

 

[CraigC]

The problem with the .357 or any other revolver round at 200yds is not killing ability of the cartridge. It's hitting ability of the shooter when the bullet starts dropping like a stone.

 

[RPRNY]

Maximum brass yeilds a quite substantial increase in case capacity that's necessary to achieve the numbers it produces. Its not "just longer to not fit" in a magnum. The assertion that you can load Max data in mag brass is a patently false and dangerous one.

Not sure how to sugar coat this for you. Your assertion is incorrect when loading for the Handi rifle. To seat 200 gr + bullets, throating may be needed but you're not going to exceed 23.5 grs of H110 in a Max unless your are trying to turn it into a varmint round with low weight bullets, and that will comfortably fit in a Mag case. I am speaking specifically about the Handi where seating depth is a good deal more flexible. It may be that you are unfamiliar with the Handi rifle and its advantages in this regard, so I will act with restraint in my response.

But I urge you to dismount from your high horse and desist from further spurious assertions.

 

[DeadFlies]

The .30-30 will do everything a .357 will do plus more and with better sectional density given the same weight bullet.

 

[R.W.Dale]

I've owned TWO 357 Max handi rifles I assure you the only incorrect assertions being made are yours.

You might get one long bullet design to catch a little case on a 357 mag casing but that doesn't make it correct and if it requires throating why in the °÷=¢` wouldn't you use a Max reamer to do that throating?

With so little neck tension where only the heel of the bullet is in the case velocities with magnum handgun ball powders will be erratic at best.

Lastly you're entire long seating theory ignores the fact that the exact same principal can be applied to a maximum case too.

You really should just admit you're wrong here because unlike you I have actual experience with the cartridge gun combination being discussed here. Or you can keep living in fantasy land where magnum = maximum

Please enlighten us what loads have you shot from your 357 mag handi rifles?




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