357mag 125gr XTP Loads

[264swedmoor]

Based on my reading, the consensus seems to be that a 125gr JHP bullet makes for a very good defense round. Mr. Ayoob stated in an article that I read some time ago that a 125gr JHP moving between 1400fps - 1450fps is, in his opinion, a very good choice.

I'd like to come up with a load recipe for this round. I have VV N110 and Bullseye (for 38spcl) but I don't think BE is a good choice for this load based on reading and the absence of factory data. The VV factory data lists a minimum load of 16.8gr of N110 for the Hornady 125gr XTP which delivers a velocity of just over 1600fps (the max load is 18.4gr of N110 delivering ~1770fps).

I'm willing to stick with VV despite the price premium because it's always available at my local reloading store and I'm shooting quantities in which the price premium is a factor, but not a dealbreaker. I would like to try other powders at some point but availability is inconsistent right now.

Questions -
1.) Mr. Ayoob is a recognized expert in the field. Is there anything magical about his 1400 - 1450 velocity range? I suspect that it's a velocity chosen to balance terminal performance against overpenetration. The article may have explained it, but I do not recall the rational behind his choice.

2.) I am concerned with overpenetration ("OP"). Is a 1600fps 125 XTP at high-risk for OP if loaded properly and if it expands as designed? I do understand that a higher velocity round by its nature has a higher probability of OPing vs a lower velocity round, provided that the bullet hits the target within the factory prescribed velocity range to allow for adequate bullet performance. I have watched the Mr. Harrell tests of standard pressure 38spcl JHPs that did not expand since they (presumably) are not moving fast enough to perform as designed. I would like to avoid that issue, of course, and don't think it's as big a concern with a decently loaded 375 load vs. a standard pressure 38spcl...but correct me if I'm wrong.

3.) Is it safe to load below VV's factory data for N110 to achieve ~1425fps or is it better to simply use a powder with factory load data that falls within the desired velocity range?

The gun is a 5" GP100 in 357 Mag.

 

[Seedy Character]

Not having read Ayoob's complete article, I can only guess. Added to my experience


The 1400-1450 is most likely from ~ 2" barrel.
The factory Remington loading from a 6" barrel is 1550-1600 fps.

This loading or my 125 gr HP reloads are my SD choice in .357 for 30+ years.

I don't remember what my powders my loads are. I have gotten excellent results from several. I'm not home, to check.

 

[westernrover]

Do you carry a 5" GP100 for defense?

What velocity are you getting from VV N110 now?

Do you have a chronograph or are you just going based on VV's published data?

I have not chronographed a 125 grain XTP from a 5" barrel, but I have chronographed a 158 grain XTP from a 5" barrel. VV's data indicates a 16.3 grains of N110 will produce 1637 fps from a 7" test barrel. In a 5" revolver barrel, 5-shot mean velocity was 1303 fps. Welcome to the "real world."

Overpenetration is not a concern. Even the FBI recognizes that with the low hit rate in actual encounters, it makes more sense to worry about all the misses than it does the hits that keep going. On the other hand, the heavy recoil of a 125 gr going 1600 fps is likely to contribute to misses or to slow a string of shots.

In Luckygunner's gel tests, the 125 grain XTP penetrated excessively and expanded but somewhat poorly at 1125 fps. At 1379 fps, it expanded very well and penetrated in the goal range with a mean of 16.7". Based on this, I would try to get around 1300 fps for that bullet and test the expansion myself (with water). If it expands dependably at 1300 fps, I can be confident it will penetrate and not produce a lot more recoil than is necessary. Driving it faster than 1379 fps is just going to produce more recoil than there is any reason to suffer.

 

[fxvr5]

The 1400-1450 is most likely from ~ 2" barrel.

The 1400-1450 is from a 4" barrel. See the manufacturer's specs.

 

[264swedmoor]

@westernrover - I've not chrono'd them yet, jut using VV data (which is not 5" data). I don't ever expect to carry a 5" GP100 for defense but I'd still like to have data for a practical defense load. Realistically, if I ever actually carry it for the express purpose of self defense, maybe 135gr Gold Dot 38spcl +P is the right round.

I might be asking the wrong question. Maybe I should be asking about good 38spcl +P loads.

 

[Seedy Character]

Unique
Herco
4227
2400
Power Pistol
Blue Dot


All work in .357 or .38 +P

N110 is for 158gr. You MIGHT can find a listing for 135gr or 140gr bullets. Or compare loads for 158 and 125 (if you can), figure your starting load.

Many powders will work. Find a reasonable pressure load that produces the velocity you desire.
As the powders I listed, all work. They are not identical or provide identical velocities.

 

[fxvr5]

N110 is for 158gr.

???

VV has load data for all weights in 357 Mag.

 

[Seedy Character]

???

VV has load data for all weights in 357 Mag.

Never used any VV

The 1 manual I looked at, only list N110 with 158gr.

Why multiple manuals are searched. I stated, you MIGHT find loads listed for 125gr, 130gr, 135gr, 140gr.

Using any load, that is not listed in a manual is the responsibility of the loader.

OP appears to be a novice. Stay with published data.

Some powders react very differently and should not be used with lighter bullets or below MIN loads.

 

[fxvr5]

Never used any VV

The 1 manual I looked at, only list N110 with 158gr.

You should look around a little more before you make your posts. You've been a fountain of misinformation.

This is a good example of why forums are not the place for factual information, since people just make stuff up.

 

[AgPilot]

Pull up VV load data site. Lots of loads there. I use Their powder all the time.

 

[AgPilot]

https://www.vihtavuori.com/powder/n330-handgun-powder/

 

[AgPilot]

https://www.vihtavuori.com/reloading-data/rifle-reloading/

 

[Seedy Character]

You should look around a little more before you make your posts. You've been a fountain of misinformation.

This is a good example of why forums are not the place for factual information, since people just make stuff up.

I guess you should be coronated the King of Reloading and all posts be send directly to your in box, that guarantee any questions only get your expert answers.

Then, no data would need be published and we could save money, knowing the wise ass on the mount had answered the question.

 

[westernrover]

VV does publish load data for their N110 powder. No need to use a 3rd party book. They publish data for 110, 125, 140, 158, and 180 grain bullets, and the XTP in particular.
It's right here:
https://www.vihtavuori.com/reloading-data/handgun-reloading/?cartridge=36

 

[AJC1]

A fast hp will expand well and based on the history I've read, that's its primary purpose. Expand to prevent excessive penetration. If were talking about sd and it appears we are, are you prepared to deal with the amount of flash and muzzle blast said round will produce. Full mag rounds are fun for banging steel or punching paper, I dont know if I would want a flash bang going off in my face in the most critical of moments. There may be factors more important than outright speed in your choices. Now in a dangerous encounter with wildlife you may need the power to disable the animal.

 

[RealGun]

If using XTPs, first stop would be the Hornady manual. For 125 gr XTP and .357 Magnum cases they list 15-16 grains of VIHT N-110 to achieve 1400-1500 fps. 16.1 is max.

 

[v8stang289]

I guess you should be coronated the King of Reloading and all posts be send directly to your in box, that guarantee any questions only get your expert answers.

Then, no data would need be published and we could save money, knowing the wise ass on the mount had answered the question.

Not sure who this is directed towards, but what's with the attitude?
Other participants in this thread have only offered advice and resources for the OP.

 

[Seedy Character]

Not sure who this is directed towards, but what's with the attitude?
Other participants in this thread have only offered advice and resources for the OP.

Ask the King

 

[v8stang289]

Ask the King

who would that be?

 

[Seedy Character]

The one that was replied to, fxvr5
It should be obvious

Others?

I never offered anything but advice and what I had found. With OP being a novice, I am not about to give any actual load.

The main point of all posts should be, get some manuals, read carefully and don't load anything that isn't in your manuals.

 

[v8stang289]

The one that was replied to, fxvr5
It should be obvious

Others?

I never offered anything but advice and what I had found. With OP being a novice, I am not about to give any actual load.

The main point of all posts should be, get some manuals, read carefully and don't load anything that isn't in your manuals.

My apologies, sir. I've had fxvr5 on ignore for so long that I didn't see the message you were replying to.
That's why it seemed your post was out of place.
I now realize that it was not.
Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Seedy Character]

That makes a lot of sense.

Ignore buttons are great

 

[mdi]

If using XTPs, first stop would be the Hornady manual. For 125 gr XTP and .357 Magnum cases they list 15-16 grains of VIHT N-110 to achieve 1400-1500 fps. 16.1 is max.

Hornady bullets? Use Hornady data. The 1,400 to 1,500 fps is normally from a 6" barrel and "normal" velocities with a 2" will run 200 fps or more lower. Most HP 38/357 bullets need a velocity of min. 1,000 fps to reach the expansion threshold.

Personally I don't pay a lot of attention to "celebrity" opinions. I will look in my manuals and texts for data/info. I am getting back into 357 Mag reloading as I have a new 2" 357 coming. I have looked at several videos of "gel test, meat test of various 357 Magnum loads" (you can tee the good guys quickly. Those that use decent equipment in a dedicated testing place, aren't continually "sniffing" coughing, or every other word is "UUH" or opening with "Hey guys, what's happening?". But I take most as just reports of what happened with a particular tester, shooter and ammo...