.38-40 Test With 3F Swiss & Vectan PFN2 (3F).

[gilgsn]

Hello
Today I took my old Colt SAA (1897 4-5/8") out for a test using Swiss and Vectan 3F powders.
Here are the results:
Big-Lube 190gr RNFP with 37gr of Vectan PFN2: 946fps (SD 12), TKO 10.3!
MP 411-640 HP 173gr (sized .401) 35gr of Swiss: 963fps (SD 18), TKO 9.5.
The 190gr bullet load has an equivalent TKO of some of my .357 Mag loads!
No regrets getting a .38-40, that's for sure.
Gil.

 

[Shortgrub]

Loaded properly, the old rounds like the 38/40, are pretty darn impressive. My favorite is the 32/20.

 

[gilgsn]

My favorite is the 32/20.

Yep, I have an Uberti 1873 rifle in .32-20!
Very useful here as it is easier to get than a .357..
Gil.

 

[rodwha]

Impressive velocities from such a short barrel!

Which do you prefer, Swiss or PFN? I’ve only ever read about the French and South African sporting grade powders.

 

[Galil5.56]

Wonderful results from a very fine revolver and plenty stout. The BP you use seems of very good quality. Thanks for posting.

 

[gilgsn]

Which do you prefer, Swiss or PFN?

Well, this was the first time I ever used Swiss, so I haven't developed an opinion on the matter yet... I need to really compare the two with a similar load and will do so in the coming weeks..
Gil.

 

[Shanghai McCoy]

Swiss powder has the reputation of being a high quality powder. At least here in the states.

 

[Galil5.56]

Swiss powder has the reputation of being a high quality powder. At least here in the states.

So I have read. I got out of BP (PA flintlock season with my .54 cal T/C Renegade) in the late 80s, using GOEX 2F and 4F when it was made in Moosic PA. Pretty much all that could be found other than Pyrodex, which back then was not suitable AFAI remember.

 

[rodwha]

So I have read. I got out of BP (PA flintlock season with my .54 cal T/C Renegade) in the late 80s, using GOEX 2F and 4F when it was made in Moosic PA. Pretty much all that could be found other than Pyrodex, which back then was not suitable AFAI remember.

Where did you acquire the PFN? I had thought it not imported as only Europeans speak of it, and that rarely.

 

[gilgsn]

Where did you acquire the PFN?

Have a look at my location
Gil.

 

[Jim Watson]

Might lead you to think that black powder is just about ideal for a service revolver. Not magnums, not pocket pistols, but standard size revolvers in medium to large calibers.

The 190gr bullet load has an equivalent TKO of some of my .357 Mag loads!

First time I have seen TKO applied to a peashooter like a revolver in a long time.

 

[gilgsn]

First time I have seen TKO applied to a peashooter like a revolver in a long time.

I see it regularly used in that context all the time.. I'm talking about the Taylor's Knock Out index. Is it used for something else?
Gil.

 

[rodwha]

Have a look at my location
Gil.

Tricky, tricky with that Pennsylvania past sir

 

[gilgsn]

Tricky, tricky with that Pennsylvania past sir

Well, I'd like to think of myself as part Floridian, having spent more than a couple decades there
Gil.

 

[Jim Watson]

I'm talking about the Taylor's Knock Out index.

John “Pondoro” Taylor, famous elephant poacher-ivory hunter, devised the Taylor Knock-Out figure of merit to estimate how long an elephant hit in the head but not the brain would be stunned.
He said it should not be applied to small calibers and small game.
That has not kept people from doing it.

So look up Hatcher Relative Stopping Power.
More bullet numerology but at least directed at pistol calibre evaluation.
There are others.

 

[gilgsn]

John “Pondoro” Taylor, famous elephant poacher-ivory hunter, devised the Taylor Knock-Out figure of merit to estimate how long an elephant hit in the head but not the brain would be stunned.
He said it should not be applied to small calibers and small game.
That has not kept people from doing it.

So look up Hatcher Relative Stopping Power.
More bullet numerology but at least directed at pistol calibre evaluation.
There are others.

Thanks, I have heard of the Hatcher method.
It's just not as easy to put in a spreadsheet file
Gil.

 

[eastbank]

i don,t shoot black powder in my older colt 38-40 or my 92 winchester 38-40, i like them to much to take a chance on corrosion. i do shoot black in my repo,s .

 

[.38 Special]

Might lead you to think that black powder is just about ideal for a service revolver. Not magnums, not pocket pistols, but standard size revolvers in medium to large calibers.

I've pretty much decided that black is superior to smokeless in the .45 Colt, at least in "standard" - as opposed to Blackhawks, etc. - frames. With a case full of 3f I usually get better velocity and accuracy than with even my best smokeless loads. I also find that cleanup is actually easier than with smokeless, despite all the horror stories. I simply take the grips off, remove the cylinder, and dunk the gun, cylinder, and pin into hot water with a good dose of Ballistol. After a short soak, I swish everything around, brush out the bore and chambers, then shake off the excess, wipe everything down, and let it air dry. A slight film of Ballistol remains on the gun and helps with lubrication and corrosion protection, and at most I might need a few passes with Chore Boy or 0000 steel wool to remove leading. Compared with trying to remove smokeless fouling with patches, and copper fouling with nasty chemicals, I find the BP process easier, faster, and more pleasant.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

i don,t shoot black powder in my older colt 38-40 or my 92 winchester 38-40, i like them to much to take a chance on corrosion. i do shoot black in my repo,s .

I have been shooting real Black Powder in antiques as well as replica firearms for years now.

Black Powder is not as corrosive as most people think.

A big problem with Black Powder in the old days was the corrosive primers that were used in the old cartridges.

We don't use corrosive primers anymore, so Black Powder is not as corrosive as most people think.

I try to clean my guns within a week or so of using Black Powder.

Sometimes it takes me a bit longer.

Using a good water based BP cleaning solution, in a reasonable amount of time, I do not experience corrosion in any of my replica or antique firearms.

Here are a couple of antique Smith and Wesson New Model Three revolvers. Notice they are covered in soot. I took this photo at the end of a CAS match before I cleaned them. They cleaned up beautifully, no corrosion at all.

 

[gilgsn]

i don,t shoot black powder in my older colt 38-40 or my 92 winchester 38-40,

The 92, no problem, your Colt, depends on the year, but better a little corrosion than blowing it up..
Gil.

 

[eastbank]

there are smokless powders that are safe when loaded to lower pressures and i use them, colt is a 1904.

 

[rodwha]

I have been shooting real Black Powder in antiques as well as replica firearms for years now.

Black Powder is not as corrosive as most people think.

A big problem with Black Powder in the old days was the corrosive primers that were used in the old cartridges.

We don't use corrosive primers anymore, so Black Powder is not as corrosive as most people think.

I try to clean my guns within a week or so of using Black Powder.

Sometimes it takes me a bit longer.

Using a good water based BP cleaning solution, in a reasonable amount of time, I do not experience corrosion in any of my replica or antique firearms.

Here are a couple of antique Smith and Wesson New Model Three revolvers. Notice they are covered in soot. I took this photo at the end of a CAS match before I cleaned them. They cleaned up beautifully, no corrosion at all.

I read stuff like this when I first got started. Granted I was using Pyrodex, but because I had read from several competition shooters leaving their guns for a week or more I tried that with my muzzleloader as I had been shooting for over 8 hours and was late for dinner. I cleaned up my two revolvers and left the rifle til the morning. It took me 6 hours to get the rust out.

A fellow on a now defunct BP forum had done a little testing using steel plates and burning black powder, Pyrodex, and Triple 7 and then leaving them in his humid garage during the summer for 4 days. This is what he found with the pics after using a wire wheel on the BP and Pyrodex plates:



Clearly you have very different circumstances much like Hawg doesn’t have issues with Pyrodex. I guess it kinda chaps my backside reading stuff like that, maybe my barrel would still be in excellent shape.

 

[gilgsn]

Hello. It really depends on the finish of the gun. My Colt doesn't have any blueing left. Rust appears almost immediately. I have to clean it at the range. The first time I used it (with BP), I decided to wait to get home to clean it. It's a thirty minute drive... The revolver was full of surface rust! Fortunately it came off easily, as I hadn't waited too long. On the other hand my Uberti showed no rust at all in the same circumstances. When I was young and inexperienced, I left a couple cap & ball revolvers without cleaning them for couple weeks. They went to the trash after that, lesson learned. I suspect that if I could use my SAA with smokeless, I could wait to get home to clean it... So in my book black powder is certainly more corrosive than smokeless. I have used Triple7 and don't remember my revolver rusting. I would certainly not use Pyrodex, and we don't have any here anyways..

I might try wax on my Colt to protect it, though I rarely shoot it, 33 rounds in 7 years.. In any case I know I must clean it immediately after shooting.

Gil.

 

[rodwha]

Hello. It really depends on the finish of the gun. My Colt doesn't have any blueing left. Rust appears almost immediately. I have to clean it at the range. The first time I used it (with BP), I decided to wait to get home to clean it. It's a thirty minute drive... The revolver was full of surface rust! Fortunately it came off easily, as I hadn't waited too long. On the other hand my Uberti showed no rust at all in the same circumstances. When I was young and inexperienced, I left a couple cap & ball revolvers without cleaning them for couple weeks. They went to the trash after that, lesson learned. I suspect that if I could use my SAA with smokeless, I could wait to get home to clean it... So in my book black powder is certainly more corrosive than smokeless. I have used Triple7 and don't remember my revolver rusting. I would certainly not use Pyrodex, and we don't have any here anyways..

I might try wax on my Colt to protect it, though I rarely shoot it, 33 rounds in 7 years.. In any case I know I must clean it immediately after shooting.

Gil.

After my rusty muzzleloader I was instructed to use oil such as Ballistol to soak into the fouling leaving no room for moisture. I tested this during the summer in my central Texas garage with both revolvers (stainless and blued) for 4 days and found it works like a charm. I don’t rely on this but now I know if it comes up again that I don’t have time I know what I can do to buy more of it.

I’ve only ever had rust after cleaning, it doesn’t take long.

 

[Jim Watson]

I decided to wait to get home to clean it. It's a thirty minute drive... The revolver was full of surface rust!

My Browning trap gun would have a dusting of surface rust in the chambers if not promptly cleaned.
Not just mine. I saw it blamed on some mysterious corrosive agent squeezed out of the plastic AA shells and on sweaty hands loading those slick plastic shells. I doubt the first, consider the second, but why did my Remington not show rust action so soon?
Too cheap to buy new, I accumulated once fired paper Federal hulls to load. The wax on paper shells protected the steel.