Do 158 soft points S&B offer anything better in performance than 158 grain lead or 158 grain fmj at revolver velocities? I would expect them to be a bit better from a rifle .... may expand a bit better? Pretty sure Magtec offers the same load and a similar price. Anyone shot enough of either to have a opinion? Thanks!
.38 Special S&B 158 grain sp
- Thread starter Bill B.
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Thanks! Best I recall these maybe 900 fps from 4 inch. They do shoot well but I don't see much upside over 158 lead.
GooseGestapo
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A jacketed bullet at similar pressures will actually yield a SLOWER velocity than a lubricated lead bullet. I seriously doubt that you will ever see 900fps from a 158gr JSP or JHP from a .38spl with less than a 7.5”bbl. Even at +P pressures.
Thats why the so called FBI or NYPD load comprised of a 158gr hollow pointed
Semi wadcutter at +P pressure limits is the recognized top load for the .38Spl.
Though, it will seldom exhibit significant expansion from a 2.5” or less barrel length. It typically runs about 850fps from a 4”bbl and 750fps from a 2-2.5”bbl.
I think you will be better off either shooting the “bulk packed/priced” 130 FMJ loads, or just a plain lead semi wadcutter.
Thats why the so called FBI or NYPD load comprised of a 158gr hollow pointed
Semi wadcutter at +P pressure limits is the recognized top load for the .38Spl.
Though, it will seldom exhibit significant expansion from a 2.5” or less barrel length. It typically runs about 850fps from a 4”bbl and 750fps from a 2-2.5”bbl.
I think you will be better off either shooting the “bulk packed/priced” 130 FMJ loads, or just a plain lead semi wadcutter.
Thanks for the reply. I think I got that about 900 feet per second off a YouTube video and we all know how accurate their info is LOL! They could have been shooting them out of a Winchester 92 for all remember. They did offer good penetration compared to several other .38 rounds they tried.
LV Gun
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I tried them years ago and just went to plain lead for 38 special as all I do is shoot paper. My two preferred bullet styles for 38 special is either a Precision Delta 148 grain LHBWC or just your everyday 148 grain DEWC with a fast powder like Ram Shot Competition.
Oldschool shooter
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I run Underwood 158gr coated wadcutters in my S&W 638. May as well punch a clean hole if I won't get expansion.
GooseGestapo
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From what length barrel?
Most factories quote from 6; 7.5, 7.7, 8-3/8”, or even 10”….
Typically non- +P, will run a 158gr RN from a 2”bbl at ~650fps. A Wadcutter will run 600+/- fps. From a 4”bbl; 750-775fps.
From my 6” Model 10-6 PPC modified w/6” Douglas bbl, Precision Delta match wadcutters run 690-710fps.
The Factory 130gr FMJ will run 800+/-fps from a 4”bbl, 675-725Fps from @ 1-7/8” or 2”bbl. Factory quote is 850fps……
Velocities quoted on factory boxes rate right up there with Fairy Tales, and Texas Tales…. Even with Buffalo Bore and Underwood are marginally overstated.
Boom Vang
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The way .38 Special ammunition has been watered down over the past 50 years, I doubt very much you would get much more than 750-800 fps out of a 4" barrel. And that's a +P load. But to paraphrase an old hair dye commercial, "Only your chronograph knows for sure 
"
The S&B .38 Special 158 grain JSP, SKU SB38S, is not listed as a "+P" load. European CIP standards generally do not use "+P" ratings for .38 Special - that is a US SAAMI rating. CIP levels recognize just plain old .38 Special, at the original (non-watered down) spec, which is equivalent to SAAMI +P.
That load is listed 889 fps from a 7.5" test barrel. From a 4" revolver, I would figure less than 750 fps.
There's no advantage to that load over a plain lead bullet, other than absence of leading potential in the barrel. From a performance standpoint, my experience with Euro "expanding" bullets is that they don't expand at the velocities obtainable in everyday firearms. But if the price is right, enjoy!
"The S&B .38 Special 158 grain JSP, SKU SB38S, is not listed as a "+P" load. European CIP standards generally do not use "+P" ratings for .38 Special - that is a US SAAMI rating. CIP levels recognize just plain old .38 Special, at the original (non-watered down) spec, which is equivalent to SAAMI +P.
That load is listed 889 fps from a 7.5" test barrel. From a 4" revolver, I would figure less than 750 fps.
There's no advantage to that load over a plain lead bullet, other than absence of leading potential in the barrel. From a performance standpoint, my experience with Euro "expanding" bullets is that they don't expand at the velocities obtainable in everyday firearms. But if the price is right, enjoy!
The catalog velocities from Euro-CIP ammo are usually based upon firings in 20 cm length solid test barrels rather than revolvers. So it is normal that your measured velocities from a 4-inch revolver will be about 100 fps less.
Euro 158 softpoint .38 Special which is not +P is less than 800 fps from a typical revolver and no expansion can be expected.
Euro 158 softpoint .38 Special which is not +P is less than 800 fps from a typical revolver and no expansion can be expected.
fxvr5
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I don't know which "most factories" you are referring to, but 38 Special ballistics from Winchester, Federal, Remington and Speer are from 4" vented barrels.
Vented 4-inch test barrel is used only for law enforcement contract loads. Seldom the case today. Wadcutter and others normally from 6-inch solid test barrel. Euro-CIP test convention is 20cm solid test barrel.
fxvr5
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Nonsense. I just checked recent catalogs from all the manufacturers I named. They are 4" vented barrels.
fxvr5
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Evidence it has been watered down?
Boom Vang
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1. The online catalog ballistics for Remington and Winchester don't specify vented or test barrel velocities. While they do attempt to provide realistic information, even a "vented" test barrel is a simulation and usually optimistic compared to an actual individual revolver.
2. The OP asked about a specific load, Sellier & Bellot SB38S. I posted that data. It is from a SOLID 7.5" test barrel. Actual revolver will be considerably less, to the tune of 35-75 fps per inch of barrel.
3. Outpost75 is retired and well-known industry professional with a very long history of employment with firearms manufacturers, is very familiar with industry standards and ammunition, and is a noted gun writer of the old school: technically proficient. I would take what he says with a considerable amount of deference.
FYI
Boom Vang
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As a general suggestion prior to posting, thorough independent research and/or experience is always wise. An internet search will find many discussions and treatments on this issue.
And no, I'm not doing your work for you.
fxvr5
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Download their catalogs. It's all there.
With all due respect, Outpost75 is dead wrong, and all you have to do to see this is look at their catalogs. All the makers I noted list a 4" vented barrel, and they have done so for decades. Remington got the 4" vented barrel thing off to a start in 1976-1977.
You'll have to eat those words. I did the research before I posted. You should do your research before you post, because you apparently did not and you're not making yourself look good.
And I'm still waiting for your evidence the 38 special (not the hi-speed stuff intended for the 38/44 guns) has been watered down. The standard loads have been standard for a long time.
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I believe this claim is incorrect.
The last column in the 2025 Remington catalog lists both the barrel length and a code indicating that the barrel is vented, when appropriate.
Here's the Winchester 2025 ammo catalog.
Same thing. The last column indicates the barrel length and includes a 'V' to indicate if the test barrel was vented.
I think that your general suggestion is a good one. However as regards to the last sentence in the quote, in polite debate, the person making the claim is responsible to provide the evidence to back it up. Otherwise, anyone can claim anything and send people on a wild goose chase looking for evidence that doesn't exist.
In this case, there doesn't seem to be any good evidence for the claim that ammo was watered down. I've been asking for evidence for a long time now when people make the claim and none has been forthcoming. The tests I've seen using vintage ammo show it was similar in velocity to modern loadings.
As nearly as I can tell, this theory comes from:
1. Confusion about changes from CUP to PSI pressure measurements.
2. The fact that SAAMI gradually prevailed upon U.S. ammo manufacturers to (over a period of years starting in 1977) change their velocity figures for revolver ammunition from being measured in long unvented test barrels to vented test barrels with lengths that corresponded better to the barrel lengths people were actually buying and using.
3. The proliferation of chronographs which made it more difficult for ammunition manufacturers to "pad" their advertised velocities.
Here's a THR member who chronographed some vintage ammo and compared it to modern ammo.
Were .38 special and .357 standard loads much hotter originally?
I've been reading a number of articles stating that both the .357 and .38 special standard loads were much hotter 40-50 years ago. Is that accurate? If so, why did they reduce their power so much? Shooting with Hobie "The factory ammo made back in the 1970s and earlier was hotter than that...
www.thehighroad.org
Here's information from another forum on the topic.
.38 Special "Back in the Day"
This isn't intended as an attack on anyone, but I do have to mention frequent posts by another member whose posts you will probably recall! His often made assertion is that compared to ammunition sold
smith-wessonforum.com
More information about #2.
Here are pages from a 1977 Remington Ammunition Catalog. On the first page, Remington discusses their changeover to using 4" vented test barrels for their revolver data. In the velocity data, one can see that for some cartridges, they publish both data sets for comparison. In some cases, velocities apparently dropped by 300fps or more simply because they were measured more realistically.
Here's the page showing the .38Sp and .357 Ammo.
Rock185
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I don't know what has been watered down and what hasn't, but I enjoy these discussions. I have chronographed a fair amount of handgun cartridges in real World semi-autos, revolvers, and a carbine or two. Unfortunately, I don't recall testing the S&B and Magtech loads mentioned. Some published ballistics are actually pretty close, considering all the variables that might be involved between the factory's vented 4" barrel and my vented 4" barrel for instance. I don't routinely see 900 FPS with .38+P in a 4" revolver. But a couple factory loads surprised me. I don't know the published ballistics on this load, but in a 4" revolver SIG 38+P 125 grain V-Crown averaged 967 FPS, and 834 FPS in a ~2" barrel. Better than I expected. But the real surprise was the Underwood .38+P. The 125 grain JHP averaged 1090 FPS in a 2" gun, 1263 FPS in a 4" gun. The 158 grain .38+P SWC averaged 1055 FPS in a 2" gun, and 1207 FPS in a 4". Close enough to the published 1250 FPS for me. Underwood also lists a 158 "soft cast" SWC hollow point at 1160 FPS. That one might actually expand. Expensive ammo for sure, but likely about the best .38+P is going to do in factory ammo at safe pressures.....ymmv
Wow ... I got quite a response! I was more curious about why they still load soft points in .38 if there wasn't any upside to using them. I had acquired several rounds of the .38 S&B and what got me thinking was looking at some vintage ammo. It appears that in the 1940's & 1950's the Soft Point ammo was very common in the 38/40 and 44/40. Granted it was to be fired from both rifle and handgun but this .38 could be also. Anyway this was just a general question if it was any improvement over 158 grain lead or 158 grain fmj out of a handgun. Appears it isn't .... Thanks!
Zendude
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I didn’t think that the mainstream US companies even offered 158 grain jacketed bullets in 38 or even 38+P cartridges anymore. I do see it offered by many non-US companies though. Anyone know why this is?
dickydalton
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You guys need to look on You tube for Gun Sam and Tools and Targets. There are a lot of good expanding hollow point rounds out there that meet the FBI standards and expand very well. One that I carry in my K6XS id the Federal Punch and both Underwood and Buffalo Bore sell great 158 SWGC +Ps that are great. Don't let the naysayers sway the truth.
vanfunk
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I was a big fan of S&B handgun ammo before I became obsessed with reloading. I found it to be reliable, accurate, and in most calibers, pretty hot. I fired a lot of those soft point .38 loads years ago and they averaged 890 fps in my 4” S&W 67-1. VERY informal expansion testing in water jugs and 2x4s revealed subtle upset of the lead nose but no expansion.
