IMTHDUKE
Member
Now, that's funny, don't care who you are.
.38 special vs 9X18 makarov
- Thread starter Dr_2_B
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Now, that's funny, don't care who you are.
Shadow 7D
Member
eewww, yuck
cause then you have to go in and find them
cause then you have to go in and find them
harmon rabb
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- Mar 14, 2009
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The PA-63 has a pretty crappy trigger (before respringing), whereas the CZ-82 has a trigger so nice it's ridiculously out of place on a milsurp gun. In DA, it's the best DA trigger I've ever fired, and in SA, it's on par with a higher end 1911. Yeah, it's that good (at least mine is).
God knows why CZ didn't stick with the CZ-82's trigger for their other designs.
Dirty Bob
Member
IIRC, the CZ-82 has a lot of parts, which would make manufacture expensive. The Makarov, OTOH, is in the running for the autopistol with the fewest parts. Its DA trigger isn't anywhere near as good as the descriptions I've read of CZ-82 triggers, however.
BTW, if you want a revolver to compare to, the .38 Special version of the Ruger SP101 with a 3-inch barrel is similar in weight to a Makarov. I like both, but I find a .357 SP101 to be one of the all-time great carry revolvers. If all I had was a Mak, I would not feel unprotected, though.
All my best,
Dirty Bob
Shadow 7D
Member
what if you don't do the spinny things, I mean revolvers just don't do it for me.
OldSchooler
Member
"I mean revolvers just don't do it for me."
Then you will like the pistols that shoot the 9x18 Makarov.
Remember, though, that generally these smaller sub-calibers are notorious for a lack of expansion. If you are depending on that as your sole "ace on the hole"... well, they are often found wanting.
Nonetheless, we keep trying. There has been a lot of development in the Makarov round, and many choices are out there.
The one that as been considered the best is no longer being made, unfortunately. Im referring to the Cor-Bon 95 gr load. However, they have now come out with a 70gr "Pow'R Ball" load that sounds good. ,It is really the Glaser Safety bullet, since the two companies seem to have merged. This is the popular Glaser frangible bullet, the open end of which is plugged with a large plastic ball. The stuff feeds like ball ammo but is highly regarded in actual shootings. Cor-Bon/Glaser knows their business, so it is appealing.
There are others, to be sure. Hornady has a hollow point that is well reputed, their XTP 95 gr HP. The Russian Barnaul is also thought of highly - if you can find some. Various concerns have loaded Speer's excellent Gold Dot bullets in small, "custom" quantities, but they are the devil to find. And there is, as always, the ubiquitous Silver Bear HP, from Russia. It gets the black eye from most people for being too smelly, too dirty and occasionally too Russian
But it is plentiful and has performed as well as might be expected in testing. More on that in a moment.
Actual shooting data with 9 Mak is pretty scarce, however. Not much real world help is to be found as far as hollow points are concerned. But the mind of man is inventive and he'll test anything. So, the caliber has been put through rigorous testing. All this means that if you expect to be attacked by water filled milk jugs or unflavored gelatin blocks, well... some of these HP's appear to deliver a comforting level of performance in simulated tests. Case in point is the Russian Silver Bear HP. It does feed well and it expands a good part of the time during these tests.
But lets look at this logically. In it's usual form, JHP or FMJ, we have a small bullet, 95 gr or so, traveling at a moderate velocity, around 1000-1050 fps. That is around 200-230 ft/lbs of energy. Not inconsequential, and not earth shaking. Certainly nowhere near accepted, reliable stopping energy levels... whichever school of thought you subscribe to.
'Probably why you wont see this caliber and it's close cousin, the .380ACP, in the Big Hole Manstopper Handgun Effectiveness charts we all love so much.
For these reasons I'd call the 9 Mak good-to-marginal and accept that.
It is usually the rugged, compact guns chambered for the round we are most interested in, anyway. These firearms can be had for little money and the ammo is not expensive. Ergo, we want them. Only after that is settled do we consider to performance of the round.
As for the bullets themselves, we are led to believe that only hollow point ammo can save you. But the list of things that reduce the HP bullets effectiveness in this (and any) caliber is long:
Marginal power of the round itself,
Bulky clothing to get through,
Adrenaline,
Chemically induced numbness,
Darkness,
Poor training
Stress
Not hitting your target where it counts
A combination of any of these... and more.
So, we can agree that hollow points might not be the end all we hope for when the SHTF. That said, we should look at the traditional wisdom. Here we'll find that most people consider "small" calibers, like the .363 Makarov under discussion, are best considered as "penetrators."
This is simple, really - there is little of the science or development we find with hollow points. Frankly it isn't needed.
What it says is that, if by choice or necessity, you must shoot humans in self-defense with one of these weapons, then go for the deepest punch you can get. This is where the non-HP or FMJ bullet comes into play. "Ball ammo," in other words.
There are plenty of choices here, too.
The original Russian and former ComBloc military surplus ammo can be had, although it seems to have dried up recently. In it's place are the commercial offerings of the same thing like Wolf and TulAmmo. These are essentially mil-ammo in civilian packaging. They are usually steel cased and Berdan primed, laquered and round. Pretty basic.
There is plenty of non-mil ammo out there, too. Many makers offer a variation on the Makarov round, from the Federals American Eagle to CCI's Blazer line. Many regard the Fiocchi FMJ ammo as a top choice here, as it is pretty hot and may give a bit more velocity in your gun.
The CCI Blazer TMJ flat point also intrigues me. It has a 95 grain bullet at the same velocities as all the others, but they use a large flat nose on the bullet. However, it too, seems hard to find.
Regardless, in FMJ ammo, I recommend you go with the Russian Bear, Wolf or Tulammo stuff for general shooting. It is pretty cheap and plentiful, and you can't argue with that. Russian ammo for a Russian caliber - that seems to make sense.
On the defense end of the spectrum, I'd go with the Buffalo Bore, 115gr +P, LFP. They claim the highest pressure, maximum SAAMI loading, giving 1,000 fps from a hard-cast lead, flat point bullet. Sounds good to me!
If you're not a fan of wheel guns, you'll also like that these guns invariably hold 8-10 rounds. So you'd be wise to shoot multiple times. Doing so from cover whenever possible and carrying an extra mag for good measure seems prudent, too.
You may also wish to eliminate all of this discussion and just follow the OldSchooler Doctrine of Small Handgun Engagement, which states, "Keep Your @SS Out of Situations That Lead To Gunfights."
In the end, I always reckon it this way:
1. If all I have with me is my little PA-63, well... that beats a sharp stick.
2. If it satisfied the Russians, it is probably better than a sharp stick.
Then you will like the pistols that shoot the 9x18 Makarov.
Remember, though, that generally these smaller sub-calibers are notorious for a lack of expansion. If you are depending on that as your sole "ace on the hole"... well, they are often found wanting.
Nonetheless, we keep trying. There has been a lot of development in the Makarov round, and many choices are out there.
The one that as been considered the best is no longer being made, unfortunately. Im referring to the Cor-Bon 95 gr load. However, they have now come out with a 70gr "Pow'R Ball" load that sounds good. ,It is really the Glaser Safety bullet, since the two companies seem to have merged. This is the popular Glaser frangible bullet, the open end of which is plugged with a large plastic ball. The stuff feeds like ball ammo but is highly regarded in actual shootings. Cor-Bon/Glaser knows their business, so it is appealing.
There are others, to be sure. Hornady has a hollow point that is well reputed, their XTP 95 gr HP. The Russian Barnaul is also thought of highly - if you can find some. Various concerns have loaded Speer's excellent Gold Dot bullets in small, "custom" quantities, but they are the devil to find. And there is, as always, the ubiquitous Silver Bear HP, from Russia. It gets the black eye from most people for being too smelly, too dirty and occasionally too Russian
But it is plentiful and has performed as well as might be expected in testing. More on that in a moment.
Actual shooting data with 9 Mak is pretty scarce, however. Not much real world help is to be found as far as hollow points are concerned. But the mind of man is inventive and he'll test anything. So, the caliber has been put through rigorous testing. All this means that if you expect to be attacked by water filled milk jugs or unflavored gelatin blocks, well... some of these HP's appear to deliver a comforting level of performance in simulated tests. Case in point is the Russian Silver Bear HP. It does feed well and it expands a good part of the time during these tests.
But lets look at this logically. In it's usual form, JHP or FMJ, we have a small bullet, 95 gr or so, traveling at a moderate velocity, around 1000-1050 fps. That is around 200-230 ft/lbs of energy. Not inconsequential, and not earth shaking. Certainly nowhere near accepted, reliable stopping energy levels... whichever school of thought you subscribe to.
'Probably why you wont see this caliber and it's close cousin, the .380ACP, in the Big Hole Manstopper Handgun Effectiveness charts we all love so much.
For these reasons I'd call the 9 Mak good-to-marginal and accept that.
It is usually the rugged, compact guns chambered for the round we are most interested in, anyway. These firearms can be had for little money and the ammo is not expensive. Ergo, we want them. Only after that is settled do we consider to performance of the round.
As for the bullets themselves, we are led to believe that only hollow point ammo can save you. But the list of things that reduce the HP bullets effectiveness in this (and any) caliber is long:
Marginal power of the round itself,
Bulky clothing to get through,
Adrenaline,
Chemically induced numbness,
Darkness,
Poor training
Stress
Not hitting your target where it counts
A combination of any of these... and more.
So, we can agree that hollow points might not be the end all we hope for when the SHTF. That said, we should look at the traditional wisdom. Here we'll find that most people consider "small" calibers, like the .363 Makarov under discussion, are best considered as "penetrators."
This is simple, really - there is little of the science or development we find with hollow points. Frankly it isn't needed.
What it says is that, if by choice or necessity, you must shoot humans in self-defense with one of these weapons, then go for the deepest punch you can get. This is where the non-HP or FMJ bullet comes into play. "Ball ammo," in other words.
There are plenty of choices here, too.
The original Russian and former ComBloc military surplus ammo can be had, although it seems to have dried up recently. In it's place are the commercial offerings of the same thing like Wolf and TulAmmo. These are essentially mil-ammo in civilian packaging. They are usually steel cased and Berdan primed, laquered and round. Pretty basic.
There is plenty of non-mil ammo out there, too. Many makers offer a variation on the Makarov round, from the Federals American Eagle to CCI's Blazer line. Many regard the Fiocchi FMJ ammo as a top choice here, as it is pretty hot and may give a bit more velocity in your gun.
The CCI Blazer TMJ flat point also intrigues me. It has a 95 grain bullet at the same velocities as all the others, but they use a large flat nose on the bullet. However, it too, seems hard to find.
Regardless, in FMJ ammo, I recommend you go with the Russian Bear, Wolf or Tulammo stuff for general shooting. It is pretty cheap and plentiful, and you can't argue with that. Russian ammo for a Russian caliber - that seems to make sense.
On the defense end of the spectrum, I'd go with the Buffalo Bore, 115gr +P, LFP. They claim the highest pressure, maximum SAAMI loading, giving 1,000 fps from a hard-cast lead, flat point bullet. Sounds good to me!
If you're not a fan of wheel guns, you'll also like that these guns invariably hold 8-10 rounds. So you'd be wise to shoot multiple times. Doing so from cover whenever possible and carrying an extra mag for good measure seems prudent, too.
You may also wish to eliminate all of this discussion and just follow the OldSchooler Doctrine of Small Handgun Engagement, which states, "Keep Your @SS Out of Situations That Lead To Gunfights."
In the end, I always reckon it this way:
1. If all I have with me is my little PA-63, well... that beats a sharp stick.
2. If it satisfied the Russians, it is probably better than a sharp stick.
Last edited:
woad_yurt
Member
I disagree. I have a PA-63 as well as a Makarov PM. The PA-63, with the addition of a stouter recoil spring and a softer mainspring from Wolff, is one fantastic shooter. The springs, if I remember correctly, cost me less than $20 altogether. It's never jammed on me and is reasonably lightweight, too. One thing, though, I did get rid of that horrible thumb bump on the left grip so it fit my hand. It's also much flatter for carry now.
OldSchooler
Member
You're right.
"The Makarov pistol is about the only thing making 9x18 worthwhile to own."
People love to say that sort of thing. It makes them feel important, like they have revealed some universal Truth heretofore hidden from the little people.
May people will poo on the 9 Makarov, saying it isnt powerful enough, it isnt big enough, it isnt American enough - and so on. You cant please all the people, all the time.
And they DO make a good point. It isn't hugely powerful - there ARE more powerful cartridges.
But it may be there when you need it, if you aren't the sort who wants to carry 4-5 pounds of metal around. And that IS the point. Guns like your PA-63 (and PA-64), are easy to live with. They are robust enough, simple and both lightweight and slim. I don't find the trigger pull, or the recoil to be bad either. Nothing but what I would expect from a military/police pistol, anyway. You can get used to anything. It probably won't rob your family of groceries to own one, either.
In this day and age, we should all be more concerned with our rights to own firearms than promoting our pet concepts. You'd think more people would welcome the Makarov round based on that alone.
I know I like my PA-63 for no other reason than I can get one.
"The Makarov pistol is about the only thing making 9x18 worthwhile to own."
People love to say that sort of thing. It makes them feel important, like they have revealed some universal Truth heretofore hidden from the little people.
May people will poo on the 9 Makarov, saying it isnt powerful enough, it isnt big enough, it isnt American enough - and so on. You cant please all the people, all the time.
And they DO make a good point. It isn't hugely powerful - there ARE more powerful cartridges.
But it may be there when you need it, if you aren't the sort who wants to carry 4-5 pounds of metal around. And that IS the point. Guns like your PA-63 (and PA-64), are easy to live with. They are robust enough, simple and both lightweight and slim. I don't find the trigger pull, or the recoil to be bad either. Nothing but what I would expect from a military/police pistol, anyway. You can get used to anything. It probably won't rob your family of groceries to own one, either.
In this day and age, we should all be more concerned with our rights to own firearms than promoting our pet concepts. You'd think more people would welcome the Makarov round based on that alone.
I know I like my PA-63 for no other reason than I can get one.
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