.38 Spl, .357 Mag, .38 Super, 9mm Gel Test Battery and Analysis

[Gen_Y_Ballistics]

In 2015 and 2016 I ran a large battery of gel tests with .357" and .355" bullets. These tests used up 1400 bullets, mostly on load development and chronographing. When I developed loads with standard deviations that were tight enough, the loads were tested in Perma-Gel under strictly controlled conditions. This gel battery was a follow-on to an earlier .45 ACP battery of 18 loads, mostly factory ammo.

The bullets in this .357"-.355" test included:
90 gr XTP
95 gr Magtec HP
95 gr Speer TMJ
105 gr Federal Guard Dog (Pulled)
110 gr Sierra HP
110 gr XTP
110 gr Copper M/LE (DPX)
124 gr Hydra-Shok (Pulled)
124 gr XTP
125 gr Speer SJHP
130 gr RN FMJ
130 gr TC FMJ
135 gr .357 Critical Duty (Pulled)
140 gr XTP
147 gr XTP
158 gr Speer HP
158 gr XTP



This was pretty much every bullet available at that time (during the Obama ammo shortage). Since then I have been considering the results, and waiting on the supply line to catch up with other bullet types. I will probably begin another battery of tests in October, when the weather cools down.
In between now and then I will be posting these earlier results on this thread, beginning with the 158s, along with analysis and Q&A.

The focus of this study is concealed carry loads at close range. A lot of the factory ammo available is similar to the loads I worked up. It is important to know why a certain load does what it does, and what the strengths and weaknesses are.

Gel is only a rough approximation of real world performance. It will show what a bullet does wrong, but not generally what it does right. Gel penetration is generally optimistically high, because the gel will allow a bullet to "coast" for several inches of weak penetration. In the real world we frequently find these bullets under the opposite hide of deer, or under the skin of human assailants. I will be interpreting these gel results to reflect these differences.

THE BOTTOM LINE

Arguably the most effective handgun load ever devised is the classic .357 Magnum 125 gr semi-jacketed HP at 1400-1500 fps. This load is achievable in 4" .357 revolvers, and can also be approximated in 5" 1911s and similar guns in .38 Super, 9x23mm, and .357 Sig. The load, depending on powder charge weight, produces recoil similar to .45 ACP hardball (calibers with heavier recoil than this begin to be impractical).

The load has a high likelihood of neurogenic shock ("dropping") and/or circulatory shock (fainting). The correct bullet will fragment about 1/3 of its weight to transmit "shock," with the bullet shank continuing for a gel penetration of roughly 15 inches. In short, this load carries all the advantages of a high velocity bullet, while penetrating deep enough to reach vital areas.

I encourage readers, especially in this dangerous era, to carry the most effective load that you can effectively wield. The nature of assailants changes. Not too long ago the average man was about 5'6" and 150 lb. Today we frequently see violent assailants in excess of 6' and 225.

Choosing the wrong load can risk not only your life or health, but risks the life and health of family members and friends, and also risks exposure to frivolous criminal and civil prosecutions.

 

[TN Outlaw]

Excellent write up. Thats alotta testing! Look foward to more data.

I agree on the 357mag. It put on a show of how to stop a BG quick for several years.

In semi-auto the 38 super in a longer bbl and 357 Sig will mimic the Mag as long as the bullets are around 125gr or lighter imo. When you go heavier the Mag starts to pull away a bit but still close enough. I have no dealings with the 9x23 but heard alot of ppl brag on them. They sound effective.

Ive recently became a big 9x25 Dillon fan. Although its a wildcat and ammo is not as easy to attain i can buy from Underwood, DT, or handload ez enough. Its faster than a 357mag in a 5"-6" bbl. Just have to be wise on bullet choice at such high velocity with the Dillon. 125gr jhp @1700fps and 90gr xtreme defender around 2000-2100fps. The xtm def will hold up being solid copper but im in the process of testing the 125gr jhp. Not sure if it will hold together at that speed?

Those few rounds are a nice way to get 357mag performance in a semi-auto package with quick follow ups and higher round counts.

Sorry for getting talkative!

 

[Gen_Y_Ballistics]

158 grain (.357") JHPs

Gel Penetration Chart
Columns: Bullet, Velocity (fps), Penetration (in), Diameter (in), Retained Weight (gr), Comments
Note, two diameters given for irregular expansion.

Bullet_________F.P.S.___Pen._____Diameter___R.W.____Comments
158 Speer HP___950______24 1/2___0.52_______158_____Weak expansion, bullet reversed
________________1015_____23 1/2___0.545______158
________________1085_____21_______.524-.557__153.2
________________1160_____19_______0.558______158_____Thick jacket holds together

Bullet_________F.P.S.___Pen._____Diameter___R.W.____Comments
158 XTP________950______20 1/2___0.538______157.6___Petals intact
________________1010_____18 3/4___0.531______155.7___Petals intact
_______________1060_____20 5/8___0.495______149.3___Petals lost
_______________1160_____23_______0.512______146.4___Begins to mushroom

This chart shows some typical 158 gr velocities from carry guns. Factory .357 velocity is currently around 1240 fps from a test barrel, which I believe is still 4".

The test gun for this entire series was a non-ramped .38 Super 1911, and 1160 fps was the fastest low-SD load I worked up. The recoil from the top 158 gr loads was in the .45 ACP hardball range.

These bullets are designed to hold together at long-barreled .357 velocities of 1400-1500fps. Expansion at reduced velocities is low, and penetration is very deep for a pistol hollowpoint.



The above photo shows 158 gr bullet expansion at different velocities. Low velocity expansion is marginal. Shown for comparison are .45 caliber bullets with similar wounding properties. The 185 gr XTP at 975-1000 fps has similar penetration (20-24"). The Lee 230 gr TC-TL penetrates much deeper.



This is the gel block from the 1160 fps XTP (top shot). The block length is 17 1/2". The deceleration marks are similar to a 124 gr 9mm load (similar velocity), except they are carried further into the target. They indicate moderate, unremarkable energy transfer. At lower velocities, these marks were barely visible, indicating simple penetration similar to a .45 ACP truncated cone bullet.

The bottom shot of this gel block shows a 1115 fps XTP that reversed mid-way through. This result was thrown out as atypical. Reversal happened 2 times in 9 tests, but after expansion, and in the rear half of a long gel block. I suspect the cause is loss of bullet rotation. Therefore reversal in this bullet weight is not something to be concerned about, especially since bone impacts cause tumbling in a variety of bullets.

These two bullets, the XTP and the thick-jacket conventional HP, typically have deeper penetration than other designs such as the HST and Golden Saber/UHD. The expansion of pre-cut jacketed bullets is similar to the old .38 +P Lead Semi-Wadcutter Hollow Point (LSWCHP) bullets that were used in the "FBI Load" and elsewhere. The lead bullets expanded more than conventional JHPs, and at lower velocity. The effectiveness of the FBI Load is disputed, but it's safe to say that these types of loads are not in "magic bullet" territory.

The .38 Special is one of the most difficult calibers to design carry loads for. The SAAMI pressure limits are 17,000 psi for standard pressure, and 20,000 psi for +P. These are incredibly low for a pistol caliber. Velocities from 1 7/8" J-frames are dangerously low.

In the past, the FBI Load would do about 875 fps from a J-frame. The bullets were very soft lead, and the 158 gr weight helped the bullet "pile up" on the target to achieve expansion. Any reduction in this velocity, however, and the expansion is lost. Several links below address this topic.

Gen Y Ballistics recommends:

1) At typical carry gun velocities, the 158 gr JHP is a specialty load for situations requiring deep penetration, odd angles, windshield penetration, etc.

2) A 158 at 1500 fps should be just as deadly as a 125 at 1500 fps. But it is unreasonable to advise the general public to carry 8" revolvers, which require extra considerations such as shoulder holsters.

Further reading:

Information on Police use of .38 Special and .357 Magnum revolvers (THR)
Poll: .38 vs .357 Law Enforcement Edition

158s on deer (THR)
.357 and deer hunting

Information related to the .38 +P FBI Load
The .38 Special FBI Load still the best? (THR)
The .38 Special 158gr LSWCHP (Stephen A. Camp)
Need .38 FBI Load or something close (THR)
Why is the 158gr LSWC considered tops for .38 Special?
Pocket Guns and Gear snubnose test

(Edited for chart layout)

 

[Gen_Y_Ballistics]

[QUOTE="125gr jhp @1700fps and 90gr xtreme defender around 2000-2100fps. The xtm def will hold up being solid copper but im in the process of testing the 125gr jhp. Not sure if it will hold together at that speed?[/QUOTE]

The 8" .357s would do about 1700 fps with a 125. There might be some information around here from somebody that used those. For point-blank shooting at that velocity, another thing to look at is the types of hollowpoints they use in factory .45-70 ammo at about 1800 fps MV. They generally are not deep hollowpoints, they just make expansion more reliable.

The other thing I found is that specific types of bullets have different behavior in the target. The cup-and-core SJHP 125s basically blows their noses off. A 124gr XTP is designed to hold together, so expansion is much less dramatic at the same velocities. I drove a 115gr XTP to 1500 fps, and all that happened was the petals sheared off. It wouldn't surprise me if the 124 XTP held together at 1700, since the nose structure between the 115s and the 124s is almost identical.

 

[TN Outlaw]

If the 9x25 dillon wouldve been loaded with .357 bullets instead of .355 there wouldve been a list of good self def bullets for it. .355 has alot of rounds that would seperate or tear the pedals off and act like fmj's.

The way i see it, the rounds that expand in the 357sig should work in my 5.5" ported barrel. Should be pushing 124/125gr down around 1600fps. That leaves me dealing with a bright flash in my SD gun though.

Thats why ill test my 6" barrel 1st. Thanks for the info

 

[Gen_Y_Ballistics]

If the 9x25 dillon wouldve been loaded with .357 bullets instead of .355 there wouldve been a list of good self def bullets for it. .355 has alot of rounds that would seperate or tear the pedals off and act like fmj's.

The way i see it, the rounds that expand in the 357sig should work in my 5.5" ported barrel. Should be pushing 124/125gr down around 1600fps. That leaves me dealing with a bright flash in my SD gun though.

Thats why ill test my 6" barrel 1st. Thanks for the info

Just for curiosity's sake, slug the barrel of that thing and mic it. I was running all of this stuff through a .38 Super barrel that miked .3555", including a bunch of .357" bullets. My go-to bullets are .357", and I like crimping them in the cannelure.

Obviously there's no published load data for that sort of thing in either of our calibers. But the way I see it, you don't have to push a 9x25 Dillon hard to get amazing ballistics out of it. A lot of the hot loads I worked up quit being reliable because I was going into compression with powders like AA7 and Silhouette. You could probably get those same velocities with Unique of CFE Pistol or something like that.

If that barrel is tight, you can always size the bullets down to .356" or so, and I don't think it would make any difference downrange. They get sized going down the barrel anyway.

 

[TN Outlaw]

Ive worried about pressure spikes with standard .357" bullets in a tighter bore but your right, my bores could be on the loose side. Just have to slug them and see. You running .357" in your .3555" bore with no troubles gives me good hope to experiment. Bullets with less bearing surface should be an even easier transition.

With a low dose of H108 or Unique i could probably stick with .355's in the 5.5" bbl and just keep them around Sig velocity. Eventually ill find out what i can/cant do.

I have a Ruger Blackhawk conv 9mm/38/357 and It shoots all 3 pretty well but you can tell the 38/357's shoot tighter in the bigger bore.

 

[Hanshi]

I've killed a goodly number of deer with two different .357 mags. one was a 4" S&W M19. They were 125 grain jhp loads but I never chronographed them. I also killed deer with my 6" 686 with handloaded 158 grain jhp bullets at 1260 fps. All shots were more or less broadside or angling at 45 degrees. All dropped within a few yards except for one that I hit too far back. That one ran some 100 yards before piling up. The .357 is a great caliber and excellent for deer. However, I like the .41 better.

 

[TN Outlaw]

I agree, for deer hunting applications i like the 41/44mag or even the 10mm better.

For SD i like the 357mag for ease of shooting in smaller framed guns. Not that full house 357 is ez to shoot in a snubby but easier than those other 3 to me.

I have some 180gr hard cast Double Tap .357mag running 1420fps out of a 6" bbl so should be somewhere near 1700+ in my Mod92. I hope to see what they will do to a whitetail next season.