Quantcast

3rd Model Dragoon Rear Leaf Sights - Does anybody make them?

Discussion in 'Blackpowder' started by Charles G., Jul 17, 2020.

  1. Charles G.

    Charles G. Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2008
    Messages:
    13
    I have a 3rd Model Uberti that has the screws and the cut out at the bottom for a stock, but lacks the flip up rear sights that would have been dovetailed onto the barrel. I've found older threads here and on other forums that suggest that once upon a time there were manufacturers for these but the ones pointed to no longer exist. Are there any current sources for something like this?
     
  2. kBob

    kBob Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2006
    Messages:
    5,972
    Location:
    North Central Florida
    Once in the way back Dixie Carried them, you might check there.

    I could never get a definative answer as to what those sites were regulated for as to range.

    -kBob
     
    Gordon likes this.
  3. arcticap

    arcticap Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2005
    Messages:
    8,061
    Location:
    Central Connecticut
    I Googled images for "express leaf sights" and there's many examples of both new and antique leaf sights in the results that offer potential.
    A lot of it is a matter of personal taste and what's available when you need them.
    If new production can't be found online, some vendors at gun shows and antique gun shows specialize in gun sights which often means "used".
    There's also scouring large online vendors that specialize in discontinued gun parts.

    But then how long would the barrel be and how many leafs do you really need for a 7.5" barrel?
    Did any of the old threads that you referred to involve building a custom rifle barrel for a Dragoon?
    Would a one leaf express sight be enough, that would offer 2 sight blades.

    1LeafExpress.lrg.jpg 2LeafExpress.lrg.jpg

    An outfit may be able to braze a stud on to the base of such an express leaf sight that doesn't already have one.
    Or have the barrel drilled & tapped to install the sight using screws instead of a dovetail.
    This custom gun services vendor sells some examples.--->>> https://www.newenglandcustomgun.com/products.php?cat=336

    The Uberti Remington carbine sight uses an adjustable elevator ramp.
    Do you want a sight that looks period correct or how much are you willing to compromise?

    These product pages show what the base may look like of sights that may be the same or similar to ones listed byNew England Custom Gun.
    They may be able to be adapted to fit but with screws instead of a dovetail.

    1. https://www.alanrhone-store.com/pro...cts_id=1587&osCsid=jh9rkv214jduum1gt023ke1jn1

    2. https://www.alanrhone-store.com/pro...cts_id=1587&osCsid=jh9rkv214jduum1gt023ke1jn1
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2020
  4. Charles G.

    Charles G. Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2008
    Messages:
    13
    Here are some threads that talk to this sight arrangement, also found on some special production 1860 Army revolvers as well. Note that a long time ago ASM produced a 3rd Dragoon that had the leaf sights. I did see one for sale on Gunbroker a few months or so back - I hesitated and someone else bought it. Wish I'd gotten it...

    https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/3rd-dragoon-rear-barrel-sight-question.670188/
    https://blackpowdersmoke.com/colt/index.php?topic=2979.0
    https://civilwartalk.com/threads/ma...-revolvers-with-the-3-leaf-rear-sights.25897/

    It is to be noted that I'm attempting to make a historically accurate repro, so the sights need to be correct.

    According to "The Book of Colt Firearms" by R.Q. Sutherland and R.L. Wilson, page 163: "Some few shoulder stocked pistols [M1860's] were fitted with folding leaf rear sights dovetailed into the breech of the barrel. These sights were graduated for 100, 200, and 300 yards, and are identical to those usually found on Shoulder Stocked Third Model Dragoons."
     
  5. arcticap

    arcticap Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2005
    Messages:
    8,061
    Location:
    Central Connecticut
    Do you know if the ASM version of the Colt sight is historically correct?
    The ASM sight seems to have 2 leaves for a total of 2 barrel sights, which the book source seems to indicate that there should be 3 sighting notches or leaves within the same express barrel sight.
    If it were that easy to believe that the ASM configuration is historically correct, then the NSS-A should be allowing ASM's into their competitions.
    Perhaps purchasing an ASM would be the easiest way to have a hisorically accurate repro.
    Too bad that the ASM front blade and hammer notch.ights were reported by Fingers to not work very well at all on his gun.

    And that would be another problem, how to know whether any sight that you could install would even be able to be regulated to shoot well with your gun.

    It would also be interesting to learn whether the NSS-A ever approved of any HC sights to be used in their competitiions.
    Then HC sights would have been needed to use them in their competitions.
    That might be worth inquiring about with their members who may [or may not] know what to look for and whether it's available.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2020
  6. expat_alaska

    expat_alaska Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2010
    Messages:
    1,824
    Location:
    Pe Ell WA
    This is the 3-leaf sight on the ASM 3rd Model Dragoon 7.5" / 12" / 18" barrels. The middle leaf is fixed.

    ASM-3rd-Model-Dragoon-Shoulder-Stock-009.jpg
     
    Gordon, DocRock and arcticap like this.
  7. arcticap

    arcticap Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2005
    Messages:
    8,061
    Location:
    Central Connecticut

    Thank you for the clarification.
    It was hard to tell from the ASM Dragoon photo tha Fingers posted.
    It seems that the ASM tried to duplicate the original sight.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2020
    Gordon and expat_alaska like this.
  8. 45 Dragoon

    45 Dragoon Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2013
    Messages:
    1,864
    Yep, 3 sight notches, 2 leafs. 20200717_220445.jpg

    First 18" Dragoon I have ever seen. My 80's ASM 3rd Dragoon had the same sight.
    Page 93 in Adler's book "Colt Single Action from Patersons to Peacemakers", has a nice picture.

    Mike
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2020
    Gordon, expat_alaska and arcticap like this.
  9. Charles G.

    Charles G. Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2008
    Messages:
    13
    So, circling back to my original question, does anyone make these or could at least be enticed into making them?
     
  10. arcticap

    arcticap Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2005
    Messages:
    8,061
    Location:
    Central Connecticut
    IMHO you will have better luck finding an ASM clone to purchase.

    Here's an original Colt Dragoon with folding sight that is currently for sale @ $7,750. --->>> https://www.collectorsfirearms.com/colt-3rd-model-dragoon-c10829/

    IMG_5550__88813.1436192678.1280.1280.jpg

    Here's an original that was made under military contract and restored before being auctioned.--->>> https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/51/1363/scarce-colt-3rd-model-1848-dragoon-revolver
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2020
  11. arcticap

    arcticap Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2005
    Messages:
    8,061
    Location:
    Central Connecticut
    Did Uberti make any shoulder stocks for their Dragoons?
    I can only find photos of ASM Dragoons with shoulder stocks.

    [​IMG]
    https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/unnofficial-walker-dragoon-lre-club.460998/page-12

    The original [military] Dragoons that had express leaf sights were made to be used with the shoulder stock that they were issued with. --->>> https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/42962404_scarce-colt-3rd-model-dragoon-shoulder-stock

    Could it be that only ASM made Dragoon shoulder stocks?
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2020
    Tommygunn likes this.
  12. expat_alaska

    expat_alaska Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2010
    Messages:
    1,824
    Location:
    Pe Ell WA
    These are older Ubertis, not Piettas as there are no barrel billboards, and the 1861 Navy cannot be a Pietta because their 1861 4-screw Navies have no aperture on the bottom of the backstrap for the J-hook. ASM stocks had blackened brass furniture.

    Jim

    1860-Army-Shoulder-Stock-016.jpg
     
    arcticap and Tommygunn like this.
  13. woodnbow
    • Contributing Member

    woodnbow Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2007
    Messages:
    689
    The loading lever on the 60 and 61 is definitely Uberti. It’s much closer to the original Colts. By contrast the Pietta levers are sort of coarse looking with some dimensions all wrong.
     
  14. arcticap

    arcticap Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2005
    Messages:
    8,061
    Location:
    Central Connecticut
    This 2016 RIA auction included an ASM Walker, & 2 ASM Dragoons with leaf sights & 1 shoulder stock.
    The shoulder stock looks great with gleaming hardware and beautiful wood.
    This type of live online auction is where a person would have a better chance of finding a historically correct ASM Dragoon and shoulder stock. --->>> https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/1027/4995/three-armi-san-marco-percussion-revolvers
    A person may need to bid double the amount that it's worth, and then be happy when it ends up selling for much less.

    A person would need to sign up to follow and be registered to bid in many different firearms auctions nationwide through an auction registry website such as Proxibid. --->>> https://www.proxibid.com

    download (3).png
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2020
  15. expat_alaska

    expat_alaska Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2010
    Messages:
    1,824
    Location:
    Pe Ell WA
    I have that same photo. That set is to die for as a collector. The shoulder stock wood is beautiful. I have always been enamored with the ASM blackened brass furniture, and the J-hook housings always fit perfectly. They were produced ~1973-1975. If I was a BP revolver collector back then I would have bought a ton of them. Hindsight is 20/20.

    Regards,

    Jim
     
  16. Ephraim Kibbey

    Ephraim Kibbey Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2014
    Messages:
    1,166
    Location:
    Ohio
    A tale of three stocks (as per Dr. Davis): At first ASM 3rd Model stocks had genuine blued steel hardware. These stocks were quickly gobbled up by first gen. Colt 3rd Model owners because they fit and were close to the originals. They are almost impossible to find now. Next ASM produced stocks with dark anodized metal hardware which looks like blued steel from a distance or in photos but is not magnetic. Finally they went with the flow and produced ones with brass hardware like the ones for their other replicas. I have an anodized one. The opening in the 3rd Model stock is larger than in the 1860 or 1851 stocks so they do not fit the dragoon. I do not own an Uberti 3rd model Dragoon but perhaps someone on the Highroad does own both brands and an ASM dragoon stock and could check the fit for you. As for the sight, I think we might have found a modern one that looked similar in a previous thread but I can't find its picture in my archive. I think the easiest and cheapest solution to your quest is to keep your eyes out for and ASM with stock, jump on it and then put your Uberti up for sale. Here are some that sold to get an idea of the price:
    https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...-barrel---shoulder-stock.cfm?gun_id=100149977
    https://classic.gunauction.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=8081318
    https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...-stock-and-accouterments.cfm?gun_id=100961765
    This is of an Uberti 3rd Model and stock that I had not seen before:
    https://www.gunsamerica.com/9333372...el-Dragoon-with-detachable-shoulder-stock.htm
    Good Luck!
     
    arcticap likes this.
  17. Ephraim Kibbey

    Ephraim Kibbey Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2014
    Messages:
    1,166
    Location:
    Ohio
  18. Charles G.

    Charles G. Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2008
    Messages:
    13
    So thanks to a great deal of help from Ephraim Kibbey (thanks!!!) who pointed out an eBay auction for an ASM Dragoon with the sights that was being parted out, I obtained a barrel with the sights. Of course, it hath not yet arrived, but I thought I would ask and see if there is any interest out there for reproductions of these sights, assuming I can make good drawings and get a machinist to make them for me.
     
    arcticap likes this.
  19. arcticap

    arcticap Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2005
    Messages:
    8,061
    Location:
    Central Connecticut
    Comgratulations on finding the sight.
    How will you proceed to try out the sight?
    Will you be installing it on your Uberti Dragoon, or will you try to complete building an ASM Dragoon using the new barrel?

    Regarding duplicating the sight, the custom gun services vendor that I mentioned in post #3 above has a page asking for manufacturing ideas.
    Perhaps they can even make the drawings once the sights are tested for use on the Uberti Dragoon, etc...

    "If you are a gunsmith, gun maker or a buyer for a major manufacturer with an idea or a need for something better, please contact us at [email protected]. We might be able to help ." --->>> https://www.newenglandcustomgun.com/oem-services.php
     
    woodnbow and Charles G. like this.
  20. Charles G.

    Charles G. Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2008
    Messages:
    13
    It will be installed on the Uberti - if the frame for the ASM had been available I might have tried to win the whole Dragoon, but to comply with fleaBay the seller did not list that piece. If I can get to an outdoor range I will test it, but that's a big if in California. Even so, it will be more to gauge where the sights actually place shots, than to tinker with the design any.
     
    arcticap likes this.
  21. arcticap

    arcticap Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2005
    Messages:
    8,061
    Location:
    Central Connecticut
    There's a 1992 ASM Dragoon 3rd model standard edition being auctioned on Gunbroker.
    It's very handsome and has been accurized by chamber reaming.
    Starting bid is only $245 but it does have 8 days left. --->>> https://www.gunbroker.com/item/875590610

    You could test the sights, then send the long range barrel and sight intact to a manufacturer to try to make some prototypes.
    From there, you could be in business.
    It's hard to sell sights without having any made and testing them out.
    It's a small investment that could pay off since some folks would surely want a copy of that sight.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2020
  22. Charles G.

    Charles G. Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2008
    Messages:
    13
    Funny thing - I did win this auction, and it turns out that the owner was none other than Johnny Bates, who with Mike Cumpston wrote the book "Percussion Revolvers", which mentions this ASM revolver as being one that he bought and had to do significant gunsmithing on to make it work correctly. I feel rather privileged to have this!
     
    Ephraim Kibbey likes this.
  23. arcticap

    arcticap Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2005
    Messages:
    8,061
    Location:
    Central Connecticut
    Wow! You're very lucky and the final price was reasonable @ $286.
    Mike spent a lot of time here on the THR BP forum over the years, his member name is mec.
    Advanced search results show 4 pages of THR posts by mec where he mentions Bates. --->>> https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?search/45717978/&q=bates&o=date&c[node]=12&c[user][0]=1371

    That you bought the gun makes it truly seem like there was a THR connection in action. ;)

    If you missed it, there was recently another THR thread involving an ASM .50 Dragoon that has long range sights.
    There's a video of it being test fired where it's shown that the lowest sight shoots very high indicating that it needs a higher front sight.
    The video is in Post #30 on the linked page and a discussion about the gun follows. --->>> https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/1851-l-r.873804/page-2
     
  24. Charles G.

    Charles G. Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2008
    Messages:
    13
    Fascinating. It should be pointed out that the ASM Dragoon has a noticeably shorter front sight than the Uberti/Colt version (about 2/3 as high) so I suspect the ASM reproduction sight will shoot much better using the latter barrel.

    I have also obtained a Colt 2nd Gen barrel that I will use for this project. I need to find a decent machinist around here to mill the dovetail.
     
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice