Quantcast

4 count drawstroke and appendix carry

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics and Training' started by sherman123, Apr 28, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. sherman123

    sherman123 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2007
    Messages:
    391
    For those who appendix carry do you still go to the #2 count when drawing? I didn't think you skipped from 1 to 3 when drawing from appendix carry position but wasn't sure and wanted to clear it up. Thanks everyone,
     
  2. conw

    conw Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2007
    Messages:
    3,364
    I "round it off" and basically go to three for a fast drawstroke, but of course you can and should hit the #2 when you need to (retention shooting).

    Spencer Keepers and Todd Louis Green both teach AIWB specific courses I believe but I haven't taken either.
     
  3. Infidel4life11

    Infidel4life11 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2011
    Messages:
    621
    Location:
    Where the Army puts me
    So drawing to shoot target in front of me at a good distance I go from holster straight to support hand (about the middle of my chest) and punch out. If target is close and or to my left I go to step 2
     
  4. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2002
    Messages:
    21,569
    Location:
    northern california
    I'm not sure I understand how you would skip Count 2. You still have to rotate the gun to bring it on target and you can't got to Count 3 (both hands on the gun, under your dominate eye) until you rotate it
     
  5. MarshallDodge

    MarshallDodge Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2005
    Messages:
    3,159
    Location:
    Utah, USA
    As a Todd Green AFHF alumni, I carry appendix and press out as shown in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCXmZD-Rym4

    Basically the method teaches you to bring the front sight into view as quickly as possible. From this position you can press out or hold the gun in a compressed ready.
     
  6. Blackstone

    Blackstone Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2011
    Messages:
    782
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    I have always felt that the act of drawing the straight up, then rotating it, THEN pushing out to be slow and awkward. Is it just lack of repetition training? Also, is it necessary to acquire the sights before beginning the push out? I think I do a bit of 'bowling' when I draw.
     
  7. xXxplosive

    xXxplosive Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2009
    Messages:
    1,277
    Location:
    New Jersey
    You might want to check out Paul Gomez's draw from AIWB video....
     
  8. Blackstone

    Blackstone Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2011
    Messages:
    782
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    This one?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OZfgutNufU

    How applicable is this technique to competition shooting? It seems catered towards combat shooting, where you may need to shoot without full extension in confined spaces or close quarters encounters.
     
  9. MarshallDodge

    MarshallDodge Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2005
    Messages:
    3,159
    Location:
    Utah, USA
    From the DA link in 9mmepihany's signature-
    Ernest and Todd Green did a lot of training together while at Beretta.

    As for me, I think there will always be several ways to skin the cat.

    I shot a 1911 for a long time, and for a single action pistol, I find the pressout method to be difficult. For double action it works very well. My carry gun is an HK P30 9mm with the LEM trigger which could be considered a light double action.
     
  10. xXxplosive

    xXxplosive Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2009
    Messages:
    1,277
    Location:
    New Jersey
  11. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2002
    Messages:
    21,569
    Location:
    northern california
    I recently attended a class on High Speed shooting and moving up, rotating, and pushing out measurably faster then bringing the gun to extension straight from the holster.

    You should see the sights as soon as the gun reaches eye level in Count 3. From there, until you are at full extension, you can fire an accurate shot. Even if you wait until you are at full extension, Count 4, to press off your shot, it is still faster than trying to locate and align the sights when you gun is swung up at extension. I was twice as fast getting two shots on target in the 4 Count draw than swinging the gun up (.7 vs. 1.5 sec...and my reaction time is painfully slow)

    The instructor of the above class has also been a World Class IPSC shooter, so I would say the techniques apply equally. He can shoot a clean Failure Drill in .5 secs

    You don't always need to get the gun to full extension in competition either. You can start shooting on the way out to Count 4 for close up targets. With correct technique, you should be able to get both shots accurately off before reaching extension
     
  12. conw

    conw Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2007
    Messages:
    3,364
    The 2 count I'm referring to is taught extensively by Southnarc and is not really relevant to competition shooting. It is the "pectoral index" for contact shooting which SN teaches as a point between 1&3 when drawing from hip/3 o clock, but you wouldn't (naturally) hit this going to 3 from an AIWB draw. However you do IMO want to retract to that pectoral 2 if drawing from AIWB into a contact shot.

    Obviously high level competitors can teach a ton about shooting well and that carries over to any shooting situation. This tends to be outside that environment but I think it's incredibly relevant, valid material and don't know of anyone doing it justice other than SN.
     
  13. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2002
    Messages:
    21,569
    Location:
    northern california
    Not really...how soon we forget. Everything old really does become new again.

    Guns carried in the appendix position was the dominate position for carry in IPSC competition in the 70s...pre-USPSA. It was during the time when the start position was with the hands clasped in front of your chest...as opposed to the current Surrender position...and the Chapman Stance was the most common shooting platform.

    The original Bruce Nelson Summer Special...which is the definitive IWB holster...was originally design for appendix carry
     
  14. YammyMonkey

    YammyMonkey Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2004
    Messages:
    828
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    In the context of the draw that SN teaches, skip the 2 if, and only if, it is a ranged gunfight. It makes no sense to go backward to the 2 unless it is needed because of closing range or entanglement.

    Still practice hitting the 2 from AIWB, obviously, because it is established strictly by feel/physical index points as opposed to visual reference.

    ECQC is oriented toward dealing with the fight from 0-5' where the 2 is an incredibly valuable tool, but more important that sticking to the rules/numbers, is learning when and how to adapt the rules appropriately based on your situation.
     
  15. conw

    conw Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2007
    Messages:
    3,364
    AIWB is definitely a hot thing now among competitors as far as I know. I wouldn't be qualified to comment on its history in competition; I was referring to the retention shooting pectoral index taught by Southnarc.

    It is optimized for entangled shooting which isn't an element of any competition I'm aware of :p. (and it is also outside of the topic of AIWB except for questions like the OP asked)

    Edited to add: for those who are not following this is a photo of the 2 position, which came from some random person's ECQC after-action review. Note the group at the lower right of the IPSC target...that's where you make hits as a right-handed person using the 2 position in this way. It is optimized for weapon retention and mobility during entanglement, NOT for pinpoint accuracy...

    southnarc-close-small.jpg

    This is also what Gomez was discussing and he has a vid or two on it that are very good.

    The issue me Yammy and others are pointing out is that while that "2" can be a transitional point on a traditional non-AIWB drawstroke, it is not in the vertical or horizontal line of a drawstroke from a holster on the front of one's body.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2013
  16. conw

    conw Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2007
    Messages:
    3,364
    Exactly. I also ALWAYS hit the 2 and hold it for a second as I go back through the drawstroke in reverse to reholster. I think a very plausible scenario is one where you are shooting from a quick drawstroke at full extension then an encroaching target dictates you retract the gun to 2.

    Based on taking ECQC which I know you have also I'm more concerned about that branch of the decision tree than I am remembering to hit 2 from a FUT/clinch. The latter is pretty much hardwired!
     
  17. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2002
    Messages:
    21,569
    Location:
    northern california
    Ah, I mis-understood. I was addressing the appendix carry and draw in general as opposed to in a CQB context.

    I was first introduced to the position/technique in your picture by Michael Janich of MBC, who I understand learned it from Rex Applegate who trained the OSS and wrote Kill or Get Killed (1943) blended with techniques originated by W.E. Fairbairn who developed them in 1907-1940 while training the Shanghai Municipal Police

    I just had a refresher on this technique a couple of weeks ago at a CQ HS shooting class with Rudy Waldinger of DFT and we were getting hits...starting from 3' away... more along the center line. He prefers you orient more toward the center line to avoid misses from movement by either party during the entanglement.

    While he does advocate lateral movement in most training, engagements at this distance precludes it and dictates forward movement while striking with the off-hand elbow
     
  18. Blackstone

    Blackstone Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2011
    Messages:
    782
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Surely Count 3 is too early to see a sight picture. In the Gomez video, when he gets to Count 3, the gun is quite a bit under his eye.

    I need to go find my airsoft gun and have a practice.
     
  19. conw

    conw Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2007
    Messages:
    3,364
    No doubt the "retention shooting" position has been around a long time! I think there are a few key differences though in the way SN does it.

    #1 it is pure, consistent physical index, not aimed, and is only used when in touching distance of target
    #2 it is intended to be as versatile as possible within that niche
    #3 it is a part of the drawstroke, or as close to a part as possible (cf. this discussion re AIWB!)

    I am REALLY not an expert on this and would advise anyone looking for more guidance to take a class with him or buy his DVD "Fighting Handgun," which is EXCELLENT, but for people who are confused on this here are a few (random) pics of what I am NOT talking about.

    http://a.usacarry.co/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/RRRSG4-300x219.jpg - NOT the pectoral index #2 I'm referring to, because a) the support hand is meeting the gun hand, and b) the muzzle is too horizontal indicating the gun is going "on target" rather than guided solely by a physical index

    http://www.jb-training.com/close_retention_position.JPG - also NOT the pectoral index #2, but I believe this is more similar to what the old school guys taught for retention. Key differences are that it is not a seamless part of the drawstroke and again, vertical muzzle, plus the gun is actually quite far from the torso.

    What I am talking about:

    The pic in this article of Paul Gomez shows how the pectoral index #2 integrates into the drawstroke from hip IWB: http://www.teddytactical.com/archive/Feature/2007/05_Feature.htm

    Most important (IMO) elements are that his gun is oriented via a consistent physical index and the gun-hand thumb creates space between garment and slide.




    Here is a pic of Janich I found, no idea whether it is a good representation of what he teaches: http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/media/images/german-seminar.jpg

    In my experience the biggest benefit of the pectoral index #2 (like in the Gomez link) is that you can really lock the pistol to the torso for retention, AND 70-80% of the space in front of you is "safe" for the off-hand (fending, grabbing, arm-dragging, grappling, striking, etc). The semi-vertical muzzle is attractive on paper for getting "good hits" but I personally like the safety of the pectoral index and the "locked down" aspect of it (involving lots of musculature pulling the elbow up and back) for retention.

    I don't want to post photos that would reveal proprietary info but these things become critical in a vehicle, or other very encroached situation, where you want to shoot with NO hope of "creating space." I think SN's contribution of making the "retention shooting" position work WELL with grappling martial arts and therefore really integrating the handgun into what we think of as hand-to-hand ranges cannot be over-stated.
     
  20. Panzerschwein

    Panzerschwein member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2011
    Messages:
    8,124
    Location:
    Desert
    I do that tactical thing were I draw the pistol then extend it from my chest. I perform a danger scan of the area by looking left and right before and after engaging the threat.
     
  21. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2002
    Messages:
    21,569
    Location:
    northern california
    You missed the part just before Count 3, that reads "as soon as the sights reach eye level in".

    After the hands meet, they continue upward, then out toward the target. This allows you to see the sights about 6" in front of your face. This, in turn, allows you to get on the trigger sooner
     
  22. Blackstone

    Blackstone Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2011
    Messages:
    782
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Oh okay, I interpreted that as meaning that the gun should reach eye level as soon as AT Count 3, not within Count 3
     
  23. majortoo

    majortoo Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2009
    Messages:
    71
    Location:
    Northern Virginia
    Just saying that when I am out in the real world, I have to remember that the other guy might be just a little faster. He (or she) might have the edge on training and experience. That is when psychology 101 is your best weapon.
     
  24. MarshallDodge

    MarshallDodge Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2005
    Messages:
    3,159
    Location:
    Utah, USA
    I don't really count. I just get the front sight from my holster to my field of view as soon as I can then start pressing out. If the threat is close, as in conw's picture, then I don't need the sights. It is about improvisation at that point.
     
  25. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2002
    Messages:
    21,569
    Location:
    northern california
    I realize you're at least being partially facetious, but for folks trying to learn how to draw most efficiently, understanding how the draw breaks down into movements to practice individually is very important
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice