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.40 ammo question.

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by DasFriek, May 23, 2010.

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  1. DasFriek

    DasFriek Member

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    Just bought the XD SC .40 with 3" barrel.
    But i think my carry ammo may be wrong after i think about it.
    I bought Hornady TAP 180gr.
    And later picked up some Federal HST 135gr from WallyWorld real cheap and ive been reading a few ammo threads and i got to thinking about my situation.

    In my mind the highest grains is always the best even tho its slower as it will most likley still over penetrate. So i go for the biggest hole.

    Anyhow thats all fine and good out of my 1911 with a 5" barrel. The ammo will reach its max velocity. But in a 3" barrel the higher the grain it will go even slower than normal. Usually 200fps with a 2" length difference.

    My 180gr Tap is 950fps in a 4" barrel.
    http://www.hornady.com/store/40-SW-180-gr-HP-XTP-FPD/
    Im guessing if im lucky im getting 850fps which is in the realm of really bad.

    Of course i cant find the ballistics for 135gr HST since im thinking is a disco'd item threw Federal.
    155gr HST 1160 in a 4" barrel.
    http://le.atk.com/ballistics/Ammo_B...&firearm=2&bc=0.13&muzzvel=1160&bulletwgt=155

    Now by guesstimating a 135gr bullet in a 4" is possibly 1270fps, Then drop 100fps for the 1" shorter barrel and in my gun that would be 1170fps.

    So 1170fps 135gr versus 180gr at 850fps.
    My bet is on the 135gr ammo.
    Should i put that HST 135gr in my gun now and swap out that TAP? I know i really have my doubts about carrying it now.

    Now i don't feel thats the best, I think 155/165gr at 1050fps is most acceptable.

    SO, In a week when i buy more ammo should i buy the 155gr/165gr or keep one that i have?

    Also looking at Double Taps site, What is a Nosler bullet. I know its a type and usually lite but what is its claim to fame?
     
  2. REAPER4206969

    REAPER4206969 Member

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    Get some 165gr. if it makes you feel better. The FBI uses 180gr. in their PO Glock 27's. I wouldn't carry 135gr.
     
  3. REAPER4206969

    REAPER4206969 Member

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  4. Ky Larry

    Ky Larry Member

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    I carry 155gr Win SilverTips in my CZ-75B. 155gr seems a good compromise between weight and velocity.
     
  5. DasFriek

    DasFriek Member

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    Interesting video, But thats definitely not what i expected.
    Even Double tap crono'd speeds show a 100fps loss with just 1" of barrel difference.

    I see a discrepancy in both of these 2 comparison's between what i quoted and what the video states.

    I think a 155gr/165gr is what i may go with unless im proven something different.

    But from what ive said about what ammo i have which would you carry? 135gr or 180gr? Ill buy new ammo in a week when i get paid.

    That i agree with, Id even go 165gr if the load is hotter.
     
  6. REAPER4206969

    REAPER4206969 Member

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    180gr., no question. That's what I would, and do, carry no matter what.
     
  7. DasFriek

    DasFriek Member

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    But dont you question the discrepancies in the video and the posted ammo speeds from DT? I just quoted DT's info as it was easy to find, But most other info backs it up.
    Nothing ive ever seen backs that video up. Im sure it happened, Things happen all the time we cant explain away. But the normal fact is 100fps loss for every 1" of barrel on average as all loads differ.

    Don't get me wrong i love the heaviest bullet i can get in most cases, But if its too slow its infective. And if im correct 850fps in a .40 bullet is too slow and ineffective.
    Thats even too slow in a .45acp.

    BTW, what gun you carry those in Reaper?
     
  8. David E

    David E Member

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    And you base this on what, exactly?

    The .45 acp with a 230 grain bullet was designed to go about 850 fps (820 if I remember right) Most folks would agree the .45 acp is an effective caliber/load.

    If you want bullet upset, typically, you need to get the bullet going faster. This is usually acheived with a lighter bullet.

    Some time ago, I tested 185 and 230 grain JHP's fired from my 3.5" barreled gun. I was surprised that the best performing load was the Golden Sabre 230 grain. Guess what I carry today?

    If you don't have a chrono, buy one! then you can see how fast the bullets go out of your gun(s)
     
  9. REAPER4206969

    REAPER4206969 Member

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    No way are you losing 100FPS per inch. The pistols in that video are a 6" Glock 24 and a 3.46" 27. I've always been skeptical of DoubleTap's advertised specs.

    4.02" Glock 23.
     
  10. David E

    David E Member

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    This is why you need to get a chrono. You don't have to take velocity "gospel" at face value, you can test it out for yourself !!

    s
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2010
  11. TEXMEX

    TEXMEX Member

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    The .40 was originally designed for 180gr bullets. However, the Border Patrol years ago did an ammo study and determined that the 155gr full-power JHP was a better man-stopper. I suspect that applies even more so to short barrel .40's.
     
  12. DasFriek

    DasFriek Member

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    Dude i spend too much on guns as it is to justify a crono, Would be nice tho especially for my .22lr shooting for consistency.

    I do admit even my Hornady Tap 230gr +P is 950fps in a 5" 1911.
    Same as my CorBon 230gr +p is 950fps.

    I do see your points better now.
    I think i will later go too 155/165 gr HST when i get paid. Even tho i like large bullets but i like speed also and prefer a tad better balance.
     
  13. REAPER4206969

    REAPER4206969 Member

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    If it ain't the FBI, I'm not interested.
     
  14. DasFriek

    DasFriek Member

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    Yes, But neither carry subcompacts. Most likley they use 5" service weapons and in that case i know 180gr would be best.

    Ive heard overwhelming opinions on the 135gr HST's being too lite and most likley why Federal is dumping them.
     
  15. David E

    David E Member

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    Dude, chrono's start at $100 or less.

    If you don't buy one, you'll always be guessing how fast this or that bullet is going from this or that gun.

    (I learned that one of two "identical" guns shoots about 50 fps slower than the other one. I find that good to know.)
     
  16. mljdeckard

    mljdeckard Member

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    I think you're WAY overthinking this.

    Eliminate the term 'overpenetration' from your lexicon. There is only penetration, and you want all you can get.

    A 230 gr .45 at 850-875 FPS is probably the singlemost proven round in history. But this isn't what you're trying to do. The .40 isn't 'big. slow, and heavy'. It is loaded hotter, and designed for maximum penetration. The very small bullets, like 135s, are designed for very short barreled pistols. I THINK, this is why you use a full-sized gun to begin with, so you don't have to worry about losing velocity in a shorter barrel.

    Just find some 155-165s and call it good. Use the rest for practice.
     
  17. REAPER4206969

    REAPER4206969 Member

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    The FBI issues Glock 22's and 23's and allows agents to purchase their own 27's for carry with issue ammo (Winchester Bonded PDX1 180gr.)
     
  18. easyg

    easyg Member

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    Some folks like heavy bullets and some folks like light bullets....

    The 230g .45ACP has enjoyed a fantastic reputation as a fight stopper despite its relatively slow speed.
    But the 125g .357 magnum has enjoyed an equally fantastic reputation despite its relatively light weight.
    And the 125g .357Sig has been doing just fine from all accounts that I have heard of or read about.

    I generally prefer 155g bullets in my G27 but I think that the 135g ones should perform just fine too.
     
  19. CDW4ME

    CDW4ME Member

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    I chronographed some 40 ammo in my Kahr PM40 couple of days ago.
    Remington 180 JHP (green box) 945 fps
    Remington 165 GS 995 fps
    Gold Dot 155 HP 1,101

    I also chronographed some Winchester white box 180 JHP I bought at Wal-Mart and I had trouble with the case mouths getting deformed, severly dented, and jamming the pistol. The pistol works fine with the other ammo, so I'm thinking the Winchester load had longer cases or some other problem. This load was averaging about 960 fps out of the Kahr.

    I was impressed with the velocity of the 180 gr. loads, I am obtaining very close to the original intended ballictics for the 180 gr. bullet from a short barrel.
     
  20. bobehud

    bobehud Member

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    I have the SA-XD in the service length barrel 4in and carry the 135grn.I have to like the HST bullet the Federal that Wally World from all i have read are an outstanding round.I carry Mikes 135 grn from DoubleTap in my G29 and it cooks.
    Penetration very important for cross sectional that go thru an arm and chest first before reaching important organs but even at that the 135 grn has 12in of penetration.More than enough and the low recoil impulse allows you to get back on the target very very quickly.
    That being said in my second and third clip i carry for my 10mm i have XTP 200grn. I figure if i went thru a clip and there is still a problem i going to have to shot thru a car door or such.Yep i over think things..lol
     
  21. Lonestar49

    Lonestar49 Member

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    165gr

    ...

    Keep, and go with, the 165gr, as it is fun to shoot, accurate, and comes in both flavors for range FMJ and HD/SD JHP's and there will be no surprises (changes) whenever you shoot your 40cal.

    It will all remain in muscle memory..


    Ls
     
  22. DasFriek

    DasFriek Member

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    Thanks for all the replies as it gives me more to think about, Admittingly im a .45acp guy.
    picking a round for that is easy, 230gr and your done. 200gr in smaller 4" and 185gr in the 3" barrels. At least that was always my thinking.

    I went to Walmart yesterday and picked up some PDX1 165gr listed at 1140fps with no barrel size stated, But id guess 4" as most test a .40 in that length from what Ive seen.
    The PDX1 is a more reliable expanding round from what Ive read.
    Not much info on the Tap's expansion reliability that Ive seen, But Ive told its more of a penetrator round.

    Comparing Double Tapds 10mm loads too commercial .40 loads really isnt fair.
    Ive shot his 10mm loads in 180gr and 200gr and the 200gr should make the .40 caliber bullet even more effective than a 230gr .45acp commercial load.

    Anyhow i now have my choice of 135gr,165gr, and 180gr, .40 SP ammo and if at anytime my opnion changes i dont need to go out and buy new ammo.

    But for now im loaded with PDX1 165gr 9+1 in the gun and 12 in the spare mag i carry. I know i don't feel under gunned when i cant carry my 1911 due to summer weather.
     
  23. 22-rimfire

    22-rimfire Member

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    It is not something I sweat as I have never had to use a gun for my self defense. That said, I do not use FMJ ammo. I believe just about any commercially manufactured HP ammo is just fine for self defense purposes and I would choose the load that is closest to having the holes at your point of aim.

    Bigger weight grain does not give bigger holes. Mushrooming loads make larger "holes" after excpansion occurs. Choose the one that hits the best for you regardless of the brand in a HP. The higher velocity load should expand better.
     
  24. gofastman

    gofastman Member

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    I'm a big fan of doubletap's loads, they're loaded hot and they kick harder than others but here are the results from that kick:

    DoubleTap .40 S&W Penetration / expansion
    135gr. Nosler JHP @ 1375fps - 12.10" / .72"
    155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1275fps - 13.00" / .76"
    165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1200fps - 14.0" / .70"
    180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1100fps - 14.75" / .68"
    200gr XTP @ 1050fps - 17.75" / .59"

    That 180gr gold dot looks awesome to me!

    I couldn't agree more with this.

    This is worth reading too:
    http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#PISTOL AMMUNITION
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2010
  25. DasFriek

    DasFriek Member

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    22-rimfire, That was part of my concern with the 180gr TAP as its slow and not the best at expansion. Good at penetration tho. And being so slow out of an even shorter barrel than the stated "950fps w/4" barrel" im really concerned its a 50/50 chance it wouldn't expand at all.

    I don't give a hoot about over penetration, I care about grains and expansion and i prefer it to come out the other side at 2x its normal size and making a really big hole. Kinda why ive been a 10mm fan for a long time now. Just the cost is my only hang up. But for carry, The cost isnt bad even when you practice a few times a year with it. Just no fun time at the range, Its all business with that round due to costs unless you reload.

    Ive always like DT's loads since i had my G20, Home security with 17+1 of 200gr loads as i had a +2 expansion on my mag i didnt even consider buying a shotgun until after i sold it.
    The only bad thing with such hot loads in a .40 is recoil which is bad with even commercial stuff let alone DT's loadings. But it does allow you to go higher in grains and still get great expansion and penetration.
    And when you look at the cost its actually a bargain considering you get 50 rounds.
    With a full sized gun id buy DT ammo to carru in it, But for my Subcompact i think ill stick with a tad weaker load and 165gr.
    Even that is awsome firepower.

    I DO NOT feel under gunned carrying my 12+1 .40 when im not carrying my 9+1 1911.
    I carry extra mags also :)
     
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