40 s&w: is it that bad of a caliber for outdoor use?

As it seems most shots in policec shootings today miss their target even with 9mm. The force is still a bunch of psedo small handed wimps by your thinking As they still don't hit the mark.

Yep.

The "qualification" is a joke. Even back in the 80's it was a joke in the large urban department I worked for.

The job today is even worse as far as competency - by a large margin. Have you actually tried to report anything like a larceny or destruction of property to an urban police department lately - or for that matter, EVER?
Its a joke.

The job is a half-tic above public assistance, but with an occasional piss-test. That's it.

Most of them would be far better off with a pocketful of firecrackers.
Barney Fife is friggin' Jason Bourne by comparsion to most of them.
 
Yep.

The "qualification" is a joke. Even back in the 80's it was a joke in the large urban department I worked for.

The job today is even worse as far as competency - by a large margin. Have you actually tried to report anything like a larceny or destruction of property to an urban police department lately - or for that matter, EVER?
Its a joke.

The job is a half-tic above public assistance, but with an occasional piss-test. That's it.

Most of them would be far better off with a pocketful of firecrackers.
Barney Fife is friggin' Jason Bourne by comparsion to most of thi
I have dealt with reporting things a few times. In the 90's and 2000's when I called in my neighbor the police often showed up often in force and arrests would be made or at the least theats would be made which kept him quiet for months. And even where I live I findpolice show up quickly. The biggest issue is the DA' just plea bargain things down to nothing.
 
Humm, our law enforcement is more efficent here. A bad guy got done in last week in the town south of me. One shot each from 2 officers and that was it. DRT. They have a very nice practice facility adjoining out gunclub range and use it frequently. City cops, SO, and state. Sometimes it sounds like a war being fought behind their berms, all with ammo the taxpayers bought for them of course.
 
While I convert my .40s to .357 sig, i have wondered is it really that suboptimal of a caliber?

I don't think it's anymore suboptimal than it was "a magic solution" when it came out. It's just another round that falls somewhere in between lots of others.
 
I don't think it's anymore suboptimal than it was "a magic solution" when it came out. It's just another round that falls somewhere in between lots of others.

Seems it's main purpose was to fit a .40 cal into a 9mm frame handgun.
To me it's neat in a way. I'm a fan of having the option of a .40 in 9mm size, even though I usually convert them to .357 anyway.
 
You proved that the .40 caliber window existed and was used, historically. Made a very useful observation.

And always was. Just how valid of a choice, if you're comparing to .357 mag and sig? I'm looking at the 155 grain load as the answer I think. Closes that gap between the two pretty tightly, though still underperforms in terms of velocity. I might have to do my own testing
155's in 40s&w are great. I prefer the gdhp's over the xtp.
 
My agency had a 1 for 1 shot to kill ratio from the time back in mid’70’s when they made the shift to the .357mag through the .40s&w. No woundings.
In ‘22 they made the shift due to Me-To’s in the fire arms training unit.
Only reason for the shift is cheaper training ammo, and lower recoil for the “minorities” in the initial training academy. Fortunately they are using some of the cost savings to buy quality duty issued ammo.

I watch the Atlanta local news every morning. The average number of shots per incident is about 7-9 per perpetrator. A presume this is due to marginal hits.
Agencies I know that had .40’s were around 2-3 hits.
An even trade off on cost I guess.
 
357 Sig vs 40sw is a comparison akin to comparing different varieties of corn. One may be longer, one may be bigger around, but they are very comparable. The difference in diameter is small but notable. The difference in length is a result of the difference in diameter. For similar bullet weight and charge the 40 will be faster out of the barrel but will lose velocity more quickly. The 357 will be slightly slower but will have better sectional density and will retain velocity a bit better. At the same velocity the 357 will penetrate better, but that “same velocity” point is very limited, and for outdoors use I would think it to be totally disregardable. What it all boils down to is what range you’re expecting to use the gun and what the needs are at that range. If your hunting deer, your going to be looking for max range and 357sig. If your looking at defense from hogs or black bear then your looking close range and 40sw. The next comparison becomes 10mm which is the .40 diameter at .357sig velocity and sectional density by jumping up to 200gr bullets. This is a win in all categories except that the length of the loaded round pushes the platform size up a notch most of the time so you go from standard frame size in Glock/m&p/xd/etc up to the frame size for .45 which is heavier and thicker.
 
I watch the Atlanta local news every morning. The average number of shots per incident is about 7-9 per perpetrator. A presume this is due to marginal hits.
Agencies I know that had .40’s were around 2-3 hits.
An even trade off on cost I guess.

Heck, based on almost every police shooting I’ve seen on the interwebs, a lot of cops don’t stop until they get to slidelock!

Now, I’m NOT judging because I’ve not been in their spot ever, but dang, for me it’s almost borderline insane when I see two or three cops mag dump into a perp.
 
I’m a big fan of the .40 after carrying one at work for years and I shoot it very well. Although I usually woods carry my 3” .357, this little Sig gets packed along often too. I feel as though the 180 FMJ with its flat point would do OK on a black bear should the need arise.

Living in an area where the state relocates “problem bears” from mountain towns, bear encounters are fairly common.
IMG_3819.jpeg
 
All of this begs a question…. if you were in the market for a 40 today, what would you get?
I got into the .40 10+ yrs ago because it's what police were using and it had a good track record in the field for working for decades. It's still an effective caliber, but it's going to recoil more and cost more to shoot.

If I'm getting into a .40 in 2025, I'm looking to get used LE trade ins for Glock, Springfield, and S&W for the low price. If I wanted to try something different on the cheap, it'd be the Px4 or some flavor H&K.

There's no reason to bother with budget brands in .40 when the used prices for name brands (Glock) are as low as they are.

More important of a question is why one would get a .40 and IMO you don't want to be all in on just one caliber for a pistol because when the panic buying ever 4 years comes and shortages take hold, the 9 goes before everything else and when it comes back on shelves the price is much higher while the other calibers are still there, the same price they've been the whole time.

It was pretty cool to buy a box of 10mm in 2020 when the 9mm was $50.

Of course that situation can be avoided by having a big stockpile of ammo or reloading, but not everyone has the money or space to do that. In that case, having alternative, less popular, but still common calibers can be a benefit. I still think 10mm is a better choice because it is more powerful than 9, .40, or .45 and can still shoot the .40, but if someone wants a smaller, lighter pistol that still has good capacity and isn't as pricey as .45 has become, the .40 is a good option.
 
All of this begs a question…. if you were in the market for a 40 today, what would you get?
I had this same conundrum earlier in 2024. I had gotten into 10 mm, but wanted to go to .40 for carry. I went with an HK USP, as they are still being made and parts are readily available. It is a wonderful platform for the .40 sw., for me. If you reload, .40 sw is fairly economical. Small pistol primers and light on powder. I can make a light plinking load that is downright fun to practice with 180 grainers.
 
LE trade in G22 but a pair of them this time. My Lee tumble lubed cast of 20-1 and lots of lefty practice too. And I'll shoot out doors.
And the G22 trade in I foolishly sold killed a deer at bow range during alternative weapons week
 
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