40 vs 45
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Gryffydd
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If a .40 S&W could push a 230gr bullet to 1,000fps I might. Till then I'll stick with the .45acp
Edit to add:
You actually make a good point, though I'm not sure it's the one you meant to. That point being: if you want to throw 165 or 180gr chunks of lead, go for the .40 S&W. At least 180 has good SD in .40.
165gr in .45 has the SD of a Necco wafer.
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Which actually is a valid consideration, recoil-wise. The bit of conventional wisdom that everyone ignores in these threads (probably because it's about the only gun-related "conventional wisdom" that actually makes any sense) is carry the biggest caliber you can control. If all you can control is a 147 gr bullet, carry a 9mm. If you can control a 180 gr bullet, carry a .40. If you can control a 230 gr bullet, carry a .45.
It's really not that hard.
easyg
Member
Actually, it's not that simple.
There are other factors to consider.
Just to name a few....
Magazine capacity
Ease of concealment
Hand-to-gun-size-fit
Cost of ammo
A lot of folks like more magazine capacity than they typical single-stack .45 pistol offers.
But a lot of folks also want a smaller pistol that fits their hand better than a double-stack .45 does.
I have looked everywhere and I can only find one mfgcr that advertises 230gr at 1000fps. Even the Winchester and Hornady +P loads are not that hot. It must be considered a +P+ load.
It is farrrrr from the norm and the fact that no major mfgcr has this offering makes me think it is un-safe.
Also none of my reloading manuals even come close to that number while staying under the 21,000 psi SAAMI pressure limit. I think I will stick with my 40LawofThirds
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Most of my reloading manuals are showing 880-920ish for max non +p loads, hardly a stretch to think that another 4,000 psi wouldn't show some reasonable gains above that.
Hornady is showing 950's for their 230 +P, Federal shows 900 fps for a non +p loading and Speer is taking the slow award with a short barrel offering at 820 fps.
Also, velocity isn't everything. If that was true, we'd all be shooting .001 Magnums with a .1 grain bullet moving at a bajillion fps.
For what it's worth: I like .45's lower operating pressure (which tends to indicate a higher margin of error available), higher bullet weight, overall larger expansion diameter and the lower noise/recoil.
If I want lots of rounds I'll go for 9mm, and if I want blazing fast, I'll shoot .357 Magnum or .357 sig.
40 just doesn't answer any questions I ask.
Hornady is showing 950's for their 230 +P, Federal shows 900 fps for a non +p loading and Speer is taking the slow award with a short barrel offering at 820 fps.
Also, velocity isn't everything. If that was true, we'd all be shooting .001 Magnums with a .1 grain bullet moving at a bajillion fps.
For what it's worth: I like .45's lower operating pressure (which tends to indicate a higher margin of error available), higher bullet weight, overall larger expansion diameter and the lower noise/recoil.
If I want lots of rounds I'll go for 9mm, and if I want blazing fast, I'll shoot .357 Magnum or .357 sig.
40 just doesn't answer any questions I ask.
For me, I have no use for the 40. 45 cal guns are usually large and heavy, and low capacity. They also fire a pricy round, reloaded or not.
The chance of any of us being ina gunfight is EXTREMELY low.
The chance of us losing that gunfight due to caliber is even lower.
The chance of going broke by shooting too much.....
So I shoot 9mm. But shoot and carry whatever makes you happy, the chance you will use it for anything other than sport is very small.
And don't get mad at each other about it, that would be silly
The chance of any of us being ina gunfight is EXTREMELY low.
The chance of us losing that gunfight due to caliber is even lower.
The chance of going broke by shooting too much.....
So I shoot 9mm. But shoot and carry whatever makes you happy, the chance you will use it for anything other than sport is very small.
And don't get mad at each other about it, that would be silly
NMGonzo
Member
You don't say ...
MTS840
Member
Agreed.
As far as handguns are concerned, many police agencies are way ahead of the military in terms of handgun selection and realistic combat training.
Gryffydd
Member
From Doubletap's page regarding that load
"The fastest 230gr loading on the market! All in a package that is just shy of a +p rating!" Sorry, but I'll take the manufacturer's (mfgcr?) word word over yours. Your loading manuals do not include the powders they have access to. I don't think selling unsafe +P+ ammo as non +P is a liability they'd like to incur if they want to stay in business.
In the end, none of it matters, as the .40 can't push a 230 to 950fps either, and loads that do that are common.
Gryffydd
Member
I'm a bit confused. Admit what?
Lv4snobrdg
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.45 always and forever
for no other reason than I was asked for my opinion
for no other reason than I was asked for my opinion
I believe the small but measurable superiority of the 45 can be discarded in favor of the 40 caliber with capacity being the deciding factor. I would rather have 15 40s over 8 45s any day.
I've shot lots of steel with both and both hit really hard.
I've shot lots of steel with both and both hit really hard.
Gryffydd
We did already talk long time ago about the 45 Vs. 40 and we pretty much agreed that in the end they are pretty much equal in their capabilities.
A 40 S&W doesn't "need" a 230 gr. bullet because a 180 gr. .40 cal has already the same SD of a 230 gr. 45.
And a 200 gr. 40 pill has even higher SD than a 230 gr. 45 cal and it can be launched at 1100 fps (Double Tap)
....and if I need something really more capable than a .40 I can always grab my S&W 1006 in 10mm which blows away any 45 ACP loads...230 gr. hard cast from Double Tap at 1120 fps with tremendous SD
We did already talk long time ago about the 45 Vs. 40 and we pretty much agreed that in the end they are pretty much equal in their capabilities.
A 40 S&W doesn't "need" a 230 gr. bullet because a 180 gr. .40 cal has already the same SD of a 230 gr. 45.
And a 200 gr. 40 pill has even higher SD than a 230 gr. 45 cal and it can be launched at 1100 fps (Double Tap)
....and if I need something really more capable than a .40 I can always grab my S&W 1006 in 10mm which blows away any 45 ACP loads...230 gr. hard cast from Double Tap at 1120 fps with tremendous SD
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45 power level in a smaller package (both ammo and gun), higher magazine capacity on average (well lately you have few double stack 45 but the grip is nto for everyone) and a little bit less excpensive ammo on average 9I do nto reload...yet)
The 40 has answered to few of my questions!!!
Gryffydd
Member
Yup, that about sums it up. Personally, I prefer heavy bullets in handguns--the heavier the better, but that's just a personal preference. Also, being mainly a revolver fan, the 8+1 capacity of a .45 1911 feels pretty plentiful, so the capacity of a .40 S&W doesn't really appeal to me that much. Just a personal thing. And if I really want capacity I'll take a 19+1 9mm loaded with some nice +P+ rounds
But pretty much equal is a far cry from
KevinR said:
But then with a statement like
KevinR said:
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I work for a large PD, about 5000 officers. When I started, in the early 1980's, we had to use .357 sixguns for our rookie year, then could switch to autoloaders. By far, the popular choice was .45 ACP, and bad guys hit with .45 ACP fell when we hit them in the right places.
In 1997, we (the PD) changed to all-.40 DA autopistols for new primary duty weapons, though nobody had to switch from what they were already using; existing weapons were "grandfathered." (We buy our own weapons.) By now, through attrition and changes of assignment of older officers, most duty pistols on the street are .40, and when we hit bad guys in the right places, they fall. Same as .45 ACP. We patrol a big city, and do shoot plenty of bad guys over time.
I went with the .40 voluntarily in 2004, setting aside .45 pistols, and have not lost any sleep over it. My present P229 duty pistols are a great fit for my hands; I would not go back to a 1911 as a primary weapon for street patrol duty if offered the chance.* I choose to use the same P229s for most concealed carry on my own time. I may revert to a 1911 for concealed carry after retirement, or use other than .40 for plainclothes/non-patrol use before retirement, but that would be because of the weapon itself, not the .45 or other bore size.
*To be clear, I think the 1911 is a great pistol. Our mandated retention-style duty rig, plus my ultra-skinny hands, long arms, and short torso, created a perfect storm situation, when drawing a 1911, that caused me have issues attaining a consistent and proper grip on a 1911. This in an individual issue, and nothing I said in the above paragraph is meant to disparage the 1911, or those who carry them.
In 1997, we (the PD) changed to all-.40 DA autopistols for new primary duty weapons, though nobody had to switch from what they were already using; existing weapons were "grandfathered." (We buy our own weapons.) By now, through attrition and changes of assignment of older officers, most duty pistols on the street are .40, and when we hit bad guys in the right places, they fall. Same as .45 ACP. We patrol a big city, and do shoot plenty of bad guys over time.
I went with the .40 voluntarily in 2004, setting aside .45 pistols, and have not lost any sleep over it. My present P229 duty pistols are a great fit for my hands; I would not go back to a 1911 as a primary weapon for street patrol duty if offered the chance.* I choose to use the same P229s for most concealed carry on my own time. I may revert to a 1911 for concealed carry after retirement, or use other than .40 for plainclothes/non-patrol use before retirement, but that would be because of the weapon itself, not the .45 or other bore size.
*To be clear, I think the 1911 is a great pistol. Our mandated retention-style duty rig, plus my ultra-skinny hands, long arms, and short torso, created a perfect storm situation, when drawing a 1911, that caused me have issues attaining a consistent and proper grip on a 1911. This in an individual issue, and nothing I said in the above paragraph is meant to disparage the 1911, or those who carry them.
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rc109a
Member
Maybe he was asking about 45LC...
My choice is the 41Mag... just to be different...
My choice is the 41Mag... just to be different...
Had both, loved one, and it was not the Beretta 96 in .40cal
Colt Gold Cup National Match .45, all the rest are just distant seconds.
Could not sell the 40 fast enough, had several 9mm autos, can't say a bad thing there, if you want more bang then go for a Colt in 10mm auto, will definitely get the attention of an intruder.
Actually have owned three .45's, great handgun, the SS Colt Gold Cup was my favourite even over very flash race guns.
Colt Gold Cup National Match .45, all the rest are just distant seconds.
Could not sell the 40 fast enough, had several 9mm autos, can't say a bad thing there, if you want more bang then go for a Colt in 10mm auto, will definitely get the attention of an intruder.
Actually have owned three .45's, great handgun, the SS Colt Gold Cup was my favourite even over very flash race guns.
makarovnik
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They are both good. I like the .45 a little better, but not by much.
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