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4000fps Doe Death Ray

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by toledo, May 22, 2020.

  1. toledo

    toledo Member

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    Ive long known that the most effective, dont take a step, deer loads are the ones at the higher end of the velocity scale. Ask people that have shot many deer with a 22-250 and they'll tell you the deer rarely go anywhere but down. That is, until you center a shoulder knuckle and the bullet fails to penetrate both lungs. Ive always been interested in a common cartridge that could push a 80-90 grain bullet at or above 22-250 velocities. It should have relatively low recoil, while providing devastating impact on small/ medium deer.

    Ive recently changed hunting property and some of my feeders are set on the edges of VERY thick woods. Yaupon and saw briars so thick that you cant see five yards. The type where tracking can only been done on your hands and knees and good luck dragging a deer back out the typical 40 yards that they run.

    This re-ignited my interest in a super fast round to drop them where they stand.
    Quick research showed there is no factory round that does what I was looking for. An A-bolt in 270 win has been my old standard deer gun so my reloading research started there. I had no desire for a wildcat but I found some people out there loading 6.8spc bullets in to the 270 win with good results. If a 270 win could do it then why not a 270 Winchester Short Mag? Some more research showed Barnes has the exact loads published that Im looking for. 85 Grain TSX flat base coming out of a 24" barrel in the 3800-3900 range. https://www.barnesbullets.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/270-Winchester-Short-Magnum.pdf

    If a 24" barrel was good, then why not a 28". I knew from other reports online to hope for about 200fps increase when adding the four extra inches to the 270wsm. This would be a suppressed gun so my love for single shots would work perfect. Another 1885 added to the stable but this time in 270 WSM with a 28" barrel. Precision Barrel Work did a beautiful job of threading and squaring up the muzzle to match the AAC Jaeger that's currently in jail.

    US9Saz4.jpg

    Next step was to settle on a load out of the options listed by Barnes. I decided on Ramshot Hunter powder because it's known to be less sensitive to temperature changes normally found in fall/ winter hunting situations. I would have never believed it but a quick check of midway and they had all the components, dies, etc in stock all at the same time. I dont do a ton of reloading but I dont think Ive ever been able to buy everything I wanted from one vendor all in one shot.

    e0OgrHC.png

    Components received. Next order of business was to find the lands in the barrel to determine seating depth. My prior rifle reloading experience has been pretty limited so I had never done this before. This was the method I went with and it seemed to work pretty well. Maybe there are better methods?



    I did this for both the 85 grn TSX and 90 grn Gold Dots. You can see the significant roll that ogive plays in when the projectile will touch the lands. Both bullets seated on the edge of the lands.

    fTrAcxc.jpg

    For my first starting loads, I wanted to stick as close to the Barnes loads as possible so I went ahead and seated to their 2.650 COAL. The result does kinda look like an overgrown 22-250.

    1mUVkF8.jpg

    To the precision gun range to commence testing. The set up. Not the best rest but it works for what I do. The can is a gemtech tracker until the Jaeger is free. The combo is long but not as long as a standard bolt action plus suppressor. Shes heavy but is well balanced for her weight.

    sppCarQ.jpg

    First three rounds are the Barnes minimum load of 69 grains. 3875, 3847, 3875. Group was about 1.5" at 100 yards. Very happy for a first attempt.
    Next three rounds are 74 grains of the Ramshot Hunter. Wow!! 4093, 4077, and 4115! And that was still .5 grains below the Barnes max load.

    0vRwyiH.jpg

    Group was a little bigger at about 1 3/4". Very satisfied for a first loading at that high of a velocity. I kind of expected it to be all over the place at that speed.

    g0w9LyG.jpg

    Spent brass still slides in and out of the chamber easily by hand.

    wlThXoa.jpg

    How much of a concern is the splattered edge of the firing pin impact? Ive heard conflicting thoughts on it and Ive seen this more than once on factory ammo.

    TVMDjbw.jpg

    Next step plan is to start seating the bullet further towards the lands to see if I can get her to tighten up some. In the meantime I need to find a boar to volunteer to be shot square in the shoulder with that Barnes. Guessing it might shed its pedals but the base should make it through.
    As I said, I dont have a ton of rifle reloading experience. Feel free to add any thoughts, comments, or questions. If you see something I could do better, feel free to share.
     
  2. troy fairweather

    troy fairweather Member

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    I killed a lot of deer with a 22-250 a 50 vmax t 4000 fps will about take the neck off.that wsm should put a good hole in a deer, have to see but anything foot from where it's shot maybe wasted from blood shot.

    The wsm normally liked to be full length sized but you have a fully supported chamber, so my get away with neck sizing.
     
  3. Bat Rastard

    Bat Rastard Member

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    I think you should take on more projects and write them up.
    Your post was an excellent journey through the process.

    Those primers don't look scary to me.
     
  4. Random 8

    Random 8 Member

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    I've no doubt that load will light them up. I would avoid any impact on any part of the deer you wish to eat like the plague though. A good recipe for DRT is any cup and core or a SMK at a reasonable velocity delivered to the central nervous system. I hunt in very thick cover, often public land near private boundaries and favor DRT shots in the high neck/head. I shoot a medium for caliber cup and core in the .280 Rem with very lethal results. Pick a load that you have utmost confidence in the precision of it, and shoot for the medulla oblongata.
     
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  5. Catpop

    Catpop Member

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    Beautiful crowning job!
     
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  6. fpgt72

    fpgt72 member

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    "How much of a concern is the splattered edge of the firing pin impact? Ive heard conflicting thoughts on it and Ive seen this more than once on factory ammo."

    I think you answered your own question there.....not much of a concern.

    I did not see any other signs of pressure worries, you did not say anything that would lead me to think you are on the edge of something bad.
     
  7. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    Cratered primers alone - such as those pictured - are an indication of a firearm problem, not a load/pressure problem.
     
  8. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    In support of your theory, a long ago NRA convention had a speaker who traveled all over and shot everything he saw with a .257 Weatherby. The 87 grain "varmint load" not the 115 grain game bullet. He hadn't met the fate of the sahibs who went after dangerous game with a 280 Ross or even a .22 Savage High Power so he must have gotten over a velocity threshold... or gotten lucky.
     
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  9. .38 Special

    .38 Special Member

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    Interesting project and great write-up. I'm sure the load will be effective. I just hope the throat lasts long enough for you to finish your load development!
     
  10. fpgt72

    fpgt72 member

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    What kind of problem?
     
  11. toledo

    toledo Member

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    Thanks for all the thoughts.

    I ordered this sizer and the stuff to go with it. It says can be used with a mallet so Ill see how that goes. https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1016252229

    What is realistic life on something like this? It wont be a plinker for sure. Im hoping to settle on a load within 30-40 rounds and then no more than a dozen rounds a year afterwards for hunting.
     
  12. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    Excessive firing pin clearance in the bolt/breech face, which is to say, an oversized firing pin bore.

    Cratered primers are only indicative of excessive pressure when said result is coupled with some other excessive pressure indicator, like primer flattening/flow, sticky extraction, ejector impressions, etc. Alone, craters only tell us there’s too much room for the material to flow around the firing pin.
     
  13. fpgt72

    fpgt72 member

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    I see this on a great many of my old stuff....and that is about all I shoot. It is never enough to catch a finger or anything....When loading I just look for the normal signs of over pressure.

    When I say old I am talking 50's and older, usually military and early autoloaders...remington model 8, winchester 1905.
     
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  14. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    Only need to start worrying about it if you start seeing pierced primers, as you can sever the “crater” from the cup, stacking a few on the end of the pin, and eventually causing the pin to stick. Otherwise, it’s just a feature of an oversized pin bore.
     
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  15. .38 Special

    .38 Special Member

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    I only have one truly "overbore" rifle/cartridge. It is a .228 Ackley with a bit over 400 documented rounds through it. The throat already looks bad enough that I am afraid to fire it anymore - it is a family heirloom that doesn't need to be ruined by the likes of me. I believe your cartridge should be less abusive than the .228, but maybe not by much. I think if you get 750 rounds out of a barrel you should consider yourself lucky.
     
  16. Patocazador

    Patocazador Member

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    I understand what you are after but any .22-250 bullet loaded in the ~3500 fps range will drop a deer if hit in the lungs or neck/head. I know a fella in Wyoming who lung shoots all his deer/antelope with 87 gr. varmint bullets in a .25-06 and they just drop.

    As has been said tens of thousands of times on THR, shot placement is the key.
     
  17. Riomouse911

    Riomouse911 Member

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    Hmmmm. A.240 Weatherby Mag with 85 gr tsx sounds a lot like your ideal gun in factory gun-ammo form... hits about 3,500 fps. :)

    Stay safe.
     
  18. WestKentucky

    WestKentucky Member

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    People scoff at smallbores... if they are so bad then why does this thread make so much sense, and why do we see such popular rounds as the .243, 25-06, 22-250 etc. velocity works.
     
  19. earlthegoat2

    earlthegoat2 Member

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    Because some of hunt in straight wall states.
     
  20. stillquietvoice
    • Contributing Member

    stillquietvoice Contributing Member

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    This sums it up perfectly.
     
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  21. jmorris

    jmorris Member

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    Maddi Griffin, when they sold .30 cal sabots for the 50 BMG, had load data for 180 gn bullets over 5000 FPS on their site. Never tried any just because the Remington Accelerators were so mediocre accuracy wise but I would imagine, if one could make contact with a 180 at those speeds, things would be pretty explosive.
     
  22. AJC1

    AJC1 Member

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    Maybe I am not understanding but you want to hit an animal at those speeds. I can understand launching them that fast for a long range hunt on open ground out west but getting varmint type exploding animals on game you would like to eat doesn't make sense to me. Of course I'm in the big bore camp of hitting them with a slow cannon ball. Different strokes for different fokes I guess
     
  23. troy fairweather

    troy fairweather Member

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    High shoulder is very effective to. A 50grain Amax at 4000fps will just about take the head off with a neck shot.
     
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  24. toledo

    toledo Member

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  25. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    Definitely not a long range tool. The light-for-cartridge bullets a guy has to use to reach 4,000 typically are aerodynamically poor, so they lose velocity fast. Flying like a wiffleball - fast up front, but bleeding speed very quickly compared to a proper long range hunting load.

    At 4,000fps, we can observe that it’s almost unilaterally not a good long range hunting option. Assuredly, there simply aren’t many at all, and are no practical cartridge and bullet weight combinations which reach 4,000fps without sacrificing aerodynamics sufficiently to disqualify them from utility at long range. There are some big overbore magnums pushing sufficiently heavy bullets to 3000-3400, but anything reaching 4,000 - in almost all cases - is a terribly underweight bullet, with the negative aspect of a poor ballistic coefficient. For example, in this case; the 85 TSX has a .246G1 - Roughly on par with bullets I use in my REVOLVERS!! It falls below the standard expansion velocity for monometal bullets by 620. Relatively, despite leaving the station almost 1,000fps faster, it drops 25% (and a fraction more) at 1000fps than my relatively mild 6 creed load and experiences almost two and a half times more wind drift - and the “laser” arrives at 1,000yrds at just over 1,000fps, whereas the 6 creed with a 105grn bullet arrives at over 1700fps, and this WSM is assuredly using more than 50% more powder to do it. That’s even crediting 4,000fps, not just the common 3700-3800 many guys claim is “nearly 4,000”. Take away 300-400fps from what I described above and things get even worse for the “lasers.”

    Light bullets at 3600-4,000fps are a short to midrange play. Not good for long range hunting. Great for causing incredible trauma at short range, not suitable for long ranges.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2020
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