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.410 Revolver Improved Defensive Loadings

Discussion in 'Handguns: Revolvers' started by Mr. Mosin, Oct 16, 2020.

  1. Mr. Mosin

    Mr. Mosin Member

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    In regards to the Judge and the Governor, I know that both the .45 Colt and .45 Automatic both have an enormous gap to jump before they hit the rifling, and this does cause deterioration in accuracy and velocity.

    I also know that when these first came out, there was absolutely nothing on the market in regards to "defensive .410 usage". Everything was simply... run-of-the-mill shotshells. I know a few companies have introduced ammunition specifically for these revolvers, namely Winchester and Hornady come to mind.

    Do these respective ".410 defensive" shells actually do anything to increase the defensive capability of the .410 loading, or would one be better off with loading either .45 cartridge in these revolvers ?

    Asking for a friend's father who recently purchased a Judge, and for my personal curiosity.
     
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  2. ontarget

    ontarget Member

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    I'm sure the 410 ammo designed for defense does offer better results than a run of the mill #6 or #8 shotshell. However I've always viewed these guns as some kind of gimmick.
    Some people love them. My son has a Judge that he likes but it seems to get leaded up pretty quick with 45 Colt loads.
    My late Grand father had one next to his chair for a few years before he passed.
    If I had one I would stick with the defensive shotshells.
     
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  3. .455_Hunter

    .455_Hunter Member

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    Um???

    American Derringer Corp and Thunder 5 Revolver have entered the chat.

    .410 000 Buck loads have been around for decades.
     
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  4. ontarget

    ontarget Member

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    000 buck could be effective as well.
    How much energy could it muster from a 2 or 3 inch barrel though?
    The newer personal defense loads are engineered for short barrels.
     
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  5. defjon

    defjon Member

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    If you're using a 410 revolver for self defense you should not use ammo made for shotguns with long barrels. This led to the popular sentiment that these are useless.

    Use federal 410 handgun rounds. Two or three inch (depending on your friends gun).

    The 410 handgun rounds will run great in a longer gun but we're made to work well from the revolver unlike traditional 410 loading.

    410 buck for the revolver should let all 4 .36 caliber buck rounds exceed 12 inches of penetration in ballistics gel.

    45 colt and 45 act loose velocity but should still exceed 650 fps, and for rounds 230-250 gr + that will still be effective for self defense. 45 acp from the 29 ounce governor has no recoil to speak of.

    Actually, 230 -250 gr at 650-700 fps is pretty similar to old webley rounds that were considered great man stoppers in their day.

    Big, heavy slow has a history of decent terminal effect (I know you were looking at 410 specific loads but just an interesting aside).
     
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  6. defjon

    defjon Member

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    Avoid pdx loads by Winchester, the bbs are useless and dangerous, impossible to aim. The discs are pretty flattened and liable to turn I flight (think a quarter hitting edge on vs flat on). A minimal wound channel from the edge of the disc could result.

    Avoid hornady critical defense rounds here as well. 41 caliber slug /2 buck rounds, grains similar to a 9mm round and poor terminal results per a lot of testing videos floating around out there.

    As it stands now, I'd recommend the federal 410 buck, 45 acp on the moon clips (avoid still case. It will stick in the cylinder), or any of the 45 colt rounds. Self defense loadings, v crowns etc mimic good 40 caliber defense loadings with a heavier projectile usually.
     
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  7. Mr. Mosin

    Mr. Mosin Member

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    So... basically, it's inadvisable to actually use a .410 revolver for .410 loads ? That sucks...
     
  8. BigBlue 94

    BigBlue 94 Member

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    A 1/5 oz .410 slug has about double the muzzle energy of a 45acp, but at 50 yards the energy is almost equal.

    The judge is only good in my eyes as a snake gun. Otherwise, a smaller revolver can do most of what a judge can.
     
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  9. bdickens

    bdickens Member

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    Yeah, I'd stick with something that had a proven track record ....
     
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  10. ThomasT

    ThomasT Member

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    I saw one YT video and the tester stated the Judge was effective all the way to nine feet! I almost bought one just based on that alone. Thats about six feet further than I guessed. The Judge is the answer to the question that was never asked.
     
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  11. AK103K

    AK103K Member

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    I have a Governor, and its shoots very well, and a good distance past 9 feet.

    This was at about 10 yards using the Federal 000 Buck loads made for pistols....
    enhance.jpg
    The two loads at head level, both on the head and off were shot at 10 yards, the load below the head, just below the collar, at around 5 yards.

    I cant say how well those loads perform on people though. If you can shoot, you shouldnt have any trouble making good hits with them.

    Personally, if I were going to use the gun for people use, Id use 45acp in moon clips, as my gun shoots them the best of the three, and they are a fast reload.
     
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  12. ThomasT

    ThomasT Member

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    I figured it did. I was just taking a dig at the gun. And I like my 410 shotguns and reload for them on my home made loader. I have a 3 ball load that uses three .395 balls in it. It blows the snot out of 2x4 lumber with large exit holes on the backside of the wood. and at 20 yards all 3 balls will stay on the 2x4. I like the three ball load enough that I bought a RB mold from Lee to cast them.

    If I knew anyone who owned one of these guns I would like to try my loads in it. I also have some cast 41 mag lead bullets I need to try loading in a 410 shell and see how well those work.
     
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  13. Gordon
    • Contributing Member

    Gordon Contributing Member

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    The federal 4 pellet 000 buck pistol load is very good reaching ideal FBI 12" depth with a 3" barrel close in. It will pattern 3-4" at 7 yards and 6" -8 at 15 yards. It stays on a torso shilo target at 25 yards and with the SG load that is about max effective range. My 3" barrel Judge shoots 225 grain sec hp .45 colt ammo at 700 fps and is pretty darn accurate 4" groups single action a bit high and left.
     
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  14. defjon

    defjon Member

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    It's inadvisable to use loads made for a 410 shotgun that may have an 18 inch or greater barrel in a handgun that has a 1-3 inch barrel, yes.

    You'll want to use 410 revolver specific loads if you want to use buck shot for self defense.

    Just like the 410 slugs made for shotguns are inadvisable in a judge /governor. Seriously a 380 acp does better.
     
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  15. ThomasT

    ThomasT Member

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    Here is one of the better YT videos testing the defense loads in a judge type gun. The actual performance was better than I expected. I still don't want one but if you hang your hat on this platform its not a bad choice.

     
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  16. ThomasT

    ThomasT Member

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    You know if it would occur to S&W or Taurus to make that same gun with a standard length cylinder in rounds like 44 special, 45acp, 40 S&W and maybe even the 41 Special people have been asking for for many years they might just have something. I would be interested in one especially if they could keep the price down to where the Judge/Governor sell for now. But to me and several others the gun is just a curiosity and not something I will spend my gun buying money on.
     
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  17. Mr. Mosin

    Mr. Mosin Member

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    Thanks all. Friend's father is on the hunt for some .45 Colt now.
     
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  18. TTv2

    TTv2 Member

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    Compared to what? The Judge and the Governor are just like other revolvers in that they will have a specific load that will work best with them. I have the Ruger Redhawk .45 Colt/ACP and factory FMJ .45 ACP shoots horrible, but my handloads using a 200 or 225 grain .45 Colt bullet with 5.5 grains of Bullseye and a roll crimp, it shoots really good, probably equal to .45 Colt and while the jump isn't as long as a .410 revolver, there is still a jump.

    I think the biggest detraction for the Judge revolvers is the sights, they don't make accurate shooting easy. The Governor has better sights, but I've not followed how .45 Colt shoots in that gun because I generally don't see people shooting them off a rest using handloads that they've tuned for their gun.

    If you want to see what accuracy a Taurus Judge is capable of, follow my thread: https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/accurizing-the-taurus-judge.876365/

    I'm going to be adding to that thread in the coming weeks and months, hopefully years, as I test different bullets, powders, and in .45 Schofield and .45 Colt cases. I can tell you I was a good 20 yards away shooting 8 inch round plates with .45 Schofield going a bit under 600 fps with no problem.

    To answer this question, the specialized ammo, it depends. I do not like the Winchester PDX1 because I think the BB's they put in it are useless and often spread so fast they miss the target entirely. The disks look like they work fine and are pretty accurate, but until Winchester makes a PDX1 that only uses disks I wouldn't buy it.

    The Hornady Critical Defense ammo is best used in a longer barrel .410 and not a handgun. Accuracy just isn't there. IDK what Remington is offering for a .410 defense ammo, but Federal has 4 pellet 000 Buck and that stuff works fine and is probably the best .410 defense ammo for the .410 handguns.

    Is it better than a .45? For inside the home I think the distances are close enough that the .410 Federal ammo will work better because of more wounding capability and at 5y the spread is not much. Across a room or down the stairs and it'll work.

    It's when you're shooting 10y or beyond and the pellets spread too much to be effective. I would suggest make the first two shots .410 Federal and the rest a .45 Colt JHP, one that's proven to expand from a Judge/Governor.
     
  19. TTv2

    TTv2 Member

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    No, use the right ammo, which for the past few years has been Federal 000 Buck 4 pellet or 5 pellet if you have a 3 inch and like recoil. It's not advisable to carry the .410 revolvers with .410 for EDC because each projectile that leaves the barrel (wad included) is on you. For home defense, the .410 is probably the best considering its effect at close ranges.
     
  20. Mr. Mosin

    Mr. Mosin Member

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    So... limited to one loading. Heh. And here I thought the Hornady would do better than y'all say. Meh. Guess I was wrong
     
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  21. defjon

    defjon Member

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    Agree with above consensus. And I think the governor is worth considering.

    10 yards and under IN THE HOME, federal 410 revolver buck. If you carry it, use a 45 acp/ or colt loading that you've found to be accurate in your gun.

    Shots past 10 yards, don't use the buckshot.

    Like the above poster I can ring steel with 45 acp ball ammo. I'll measure the target but can't be more than 8 inches and it's easily 20 yards. Never understood the folks saying the 45 colt or acp was so inaccurate because of cylinder jump. Not in my experience. Minute of bad guy at any reasonable self defense distances. Mine lives in the nightstand with the 410 buck, a quick option to fling a lot of lead and no shots beyond 10 yards in the home here.

    Scandium revolver under 30 ounces that runs 45 colt self defense loading and any exotic bullet shape /hollow point 45 acp...i use Wilson combat moon clips, and tritium front site.. Love mine.
     
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  22. TTv2

    TTv2 Member

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    Working off what we know with the .410 revolvers is when shooting lead the bore gets leaded fast, which will quickly degrade accuracy. The solution is not to shoot lead, but most who own a .410 handgun don't reload and buy the cheapest ammo (always lead .45 Colt) and we get the complaints on the internet of poor accuracy. For those that load .45 Colt, they're usually loading with lead and deem a gun that requires plated or jacketed .45 Colt to shoot well to be blasphemy and thus something is wrong with it.

    Can't say that's wrong thinking, there's no reason lead .45 Colt should be an issue, but it is what it is and we work around it. With several options for plated and jacketed bullets, we have options to get the best accuracy we can.

    I think the cylinder jump issue is a red herring. Does shooting a shorter case decrease accuracy? From what I've seen somewhat, but not much and certainly not so much that .410 revolvers would be throwing patterns and not groups with good ammo built for the revolver. I have been loading for two revolvers that have a lengthy throat with certain ammo and while the accuracy may not be up for silhouette shooting, it's up for general field use. All those people using .38 Short Colt in .38 Special and .357 revolvers for competitions and they're not complaining of horrible accuracy.

    I think the biggest reason is the Judge is made by Taurus, a brand people love to bash.
     
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  23. AK103K

    AK103K Member

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    My Governor shoots best (group wise) with 45acp, the shortest of the lot, so, I don't know what that says about the jump thing.

    45colt group isn't all that bad either, but its groups are normally noticably larger. Since I haven't tried to load specifically for this gun, maybe my gun just likes my 45acp load better.

    I reload, and don't use lead bullets much anymore. Plated and jacketed seem to do fine.
     
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  24. defjon

    defjon Member

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    I agree and my gov shoots 45acp just a bit tighter than 45 colt as well (honestly, I expected the opposite).

    If you were to tote this firearm for backup in the boonies, judge or gov should be able to easily handle any standard 45 colt round.

    Something like buffalo bores standard pressure anti personel 45 colt should drive a 255 gr wc in a straight line at least 30 plus inches through bone and meat. Would put a pretty mean hurt on anything in the lower 48.
     
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  25. TTv2

    TTv2 Member

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    One of the reasons I'm using .45 Schofield for accuracy tests in my Public Defender Judge is that the .45 Colt case volume is abnormally large for such a low pressure cartridge. The amount of air space in the case is likely causing erratic ignition, poor obturation (especially with the long chamber and gas blow by reducing pressures) and it's a recipe for decreased performance. The .45 Schofield being a shorter case, but having a max SAAMI pressure very close (I think equal actually) to the .45 Colt is a way to improve performance given the reduced air in the case and the increased jump going with a shorter case is nothing in the .410 revolvers.

    I tell everyone who loads .45 Colt if they notice decreased accuracy to try .45 Schofield.

    I only use .45 Colt right now if I want to shoot my two .45 ball load or if I'm shooting in the Redhawk and want max power, which is either max charges for standard pressure or beyond. If you're going to shoot .45 Colt with less than a full/max charge, you're better off shooting .45 Schofield.
     
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