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.410 revolver penetration/velocity data

Discussion in 'Handguns: Revolvers' started by Doggieman, Oct 2, 2006.

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  1. Doggieman

    Doggieman member

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    Hi, was interested in whether a .410/45 filled with .410 00 or 000 buck would be a useful HD weapon. I've seen posts here about them but does anybody know if they've done velocity and/or gelatin tests with the above loading out of a 2-3" barrel on one of these guns? Seems like that size shot coming out of that short a barrel would be underpowered but I'd like to see some hard data. Thx!
     
  2. vesmcd

    vesmcd Member

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    You might want to send this request to the "Box 'O Truth" web site. Those guys like to do this kind of research.
     
  3. rustymaggot

    rustymaggot Member

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    i would rather have a regular pistol in a more common proven cartrige. i have serious doubts about a .410 with anything other than a slug or 00 buck. and at that rate why not a .45 acp or .44 magnum. seems like a silly solution to a non existant problem. good for snakes id bet tho.
     
  4. Doggieman

    Doggieman member

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    If you read my original post I was referring to 00 or 000 buck. :banghead:

    If you can get a 3" .410 shell with five 000 pellets in it, five chambers in a revolver, that's 25 projectiles flying at your assailant with 5 pulls of the trigger. The 2.5" .410 shells have three 000 pellets in them: 15 projectiles with 5 pulls of the trigger. If there's any oomph behind 'em it would at least be worth looking into.
     
  5. Cueball

    Cueball Member

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    I just bought one of those revolvers. The 410 would be for a snake gun/camping or fishing trip and in a HD situation I would have it loaded with 45LC ammo. Using it with 410 ammo for HD purposes would be foolish IMHO
     
  6. Doggieman

    Doggieman member

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    well ok thank you but WHY would it be foolish?
     
  7. gp911

    gp911 Member

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    Does anyone have anything real-world to share? Real data? Somebody call the box-o-truth! Brassfetcher, get on it! Wait, he did and the results sucked...


    gp911
     
  8. Skofnung

    Skofnung Member

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    A little anecdotal evidence:

    I fired a load of .410 OOO buck out of one of those single shot derringers at a fatlighter stump once. All three pellets stuck in the stump and were quite visible; one was only just under halfway stuck and the others were not much deeper. Based on that, I’d rather have a .45LC for defense.

    The Box O’ Truth needs to be consulted on this one.
     
  9. RyanM

    RyanM Member

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    Also note the horrendous performance of the .410 slugs. Nothing but dust and two shards. And 1/5th of an ounce may sound like a fair amount, but it's actually 87.5 grains, lighter than most .380 ACP bullets...

    .410, even with buckshot, is only on par with most pistol ammo. By my estimates, each pellet would make a 0.259" hole, on average. So 5 pellets gives a combine cross-sectional area of 0.263 in^2, or the equivalent of a single 0.579" hole. That's about the equivalent of a .40 S&W hollowpoint.
     
  10. Sunray

    Sunray Member

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    "...foolish?.." Three pellets with not much velocity or mass going who knows where. Any shotshell fired out of a rifled barrel produces patterns with big holes in it due to the spiraling shot string. Those three pellets can go anywhere.
     
  11. wuchak

    wuchak Member

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    Is it a fully rifled barrel? Some of the .410/45 combo's only rifle the very end of the barrel. Just enought to move it from the short shotgun to handgun classification.
     
  12. The Real Wyatt

    The Real Wyatt Member

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    I know nothing about the effectiveness of a snubbie but I kinda like my 6.5" Taurus 44-Ten. So does my wife ... she stole it from me and it now lives on her bedside table. She does let me take it our for a walk every now and again though.

    The two targets below were shot from 7 yards. Both were fairly rapid fire ... each about three seconds. Three 00 buck shotshells and five .410 slugs.

    Double-aught:


    Then .410 slugs:

    Well, I don't know what happened to the pictures. Guess I don't know how to attach/upload 'em.
     
  13. halvey

    halvey Member

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  14. Doggieman

    Doggieman member

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    I talked to the box o' truth and he said he doesn't have a .410 handgun so he can't do the test
     
  15. Zanderbander

    Zanderbander Member

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    Barrel Length

    From what I've read, the Taurus 44 ten with a six inch barrel scatters bird shot more than the two and a half inch barrel, because of the rifling. I own two .410 shotguns already, but I would like attempt handgun hunting as well.

    Is the shorter barrel the better choice? I don't like fantasing about "Home Defense". That can lead to paranoia... again.
     
  16. Doggieman

    Doggieman member

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    can someone who has one of these handguns try a wet newspaper/phone book test the next time he's at the range? With 00 or 000 buck especially?
     
  17. stiletto raggio

    stiletto raggio Member

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    I think the role of a .410 ought to be kept within parameters already given, namely using it against snakes or other common pests at close range. Otherwise, and I mean this sincerely, I see no practical use for the .410 cartridge whatsoever. Survival? Get a .22. Defense? Get a conventional pistol or shotgun. Hunting? A 28 gauge. Even small children are better suited by a shotgun with more oomph.

    Show me a situation in which a .410 in any guise is the best choice for a given purpose, because I honestly can't think of one. To each his own, of course.
     
  18. Doggieman

    Doggieman member

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    here's the thing though.. it's all speculation, until we get the performance tests of the shot. I would argue that if one can shoot 15 to 25 high-performing projectiles at an assailant with 5 pulls of the trigger, that could be a viable defense option. If they're low-performing, it wouldn't be.

    So let's forget the speculation and get some numbers. Does anybody have one of these pistols and some newspaper or a phonebook?
     
  19. Jorg Nysgerrig

    Jorg Nysgerrig Member

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    Zanderbander, do you have more information on this? I've been toying with the idea of getting one of these for fun, and I'd really like to try shooting at some clays with it sometime. If the shorter barrel is better for the shot, that would be very good to know.
     
  20. Harry Paget Flashman

    Harry Paget Flashman Member

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    Effective or not, there is just something real satisfying about loading a fat steel case Russian-made .410 into a T/C Contender and blasting away. It's got that certain je nais se qua. :)
     
  21. Zanderbander

    Zanderbander Member

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  22. RyanM

    RyanM Member

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    Each pellet only makes a hole about as big as a .25 ACP FMJ. If you want to call that "effective," then okay... But each shot of 5 000 pellets is somewhere between a .40 S&W and .45 ACP hollowpoint, in terms of actual amount of tissue destroyed. With vastly more recoil than either.
     
  23. wdlsguy

    wdlsguy Member

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    OOO buckshot is .36 caliber. I would be very interested in chronograph numbers for buckshot rounds out of a pistol.
     
  24. Doggieman

    Doggieman member

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    right, I'm not sure where they're getting .25" diameter for 00 or 000. #3 buck has a diameter of .25", 00 is .33" and 000 is .36", approx the same size as a 9mm/357/38.
     
  25. RyanM

    RyanM Member

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    The hole made is about 0.259". Spheres do not crush 100% of their diamater. Look at a hole on any target shot with a regular roundnosed bullet. Small diameter hole is completely gone, the rest of the diameter of the bullet is just bent back. Tissue works the same way, except instead of bending back, it just stretches and flows around the bullet, then snaps back into place.

    Spheres are the least efficient crushers of tissue out there. Even spitzer rifle bullets make a bigger hole. A .32 ACP FMJ will make a 0.258" average hole, so okay, it's like shooting someone 5 times with a .32 ACP with each shot. Which is the equivalent of a single shot of .40 or .45.

    Coefficient of drag constants, per MacPherson, are:

    Sphere, .355
    Spitzer, .40
    90 degree tip Cone, .52
    Roundnose, .57
    Semi-wadcutter, .55
    Truncated cone, .55
    Expanded hollowpoint, .68
    Full wadcutter, .83

    Divide the coefficient of drag constant by 0.83 to find the percent of possible tissue crushed, relative to a full wadcutter (which is assumed to crush a hole the diameter of the bullet, the whole way through).

    .355/.83 = .428

    That means that you multiply the potential wound volume by .428 to find the actual wound volume. Assume a 10" thick person, .36" wide sphere, that's

    (.36 / 2)^2 * pi * 10 = 1.02 cubic inch. Multiply by .428, and the actual wound volume is .437 cubic inch. Do some mathematical gymnastics to find the effective diameter...

    (.437 / 10" / pi)^.5 * 2 = 0.236". Oops, I made a mistake, it's 0.236", not 0.259".

    Then let's try a .40 S&W hollowpoint, which expands to 0.65". We'll assume it takes 1" to expand, so it only goes through 9" of tissue while expanded. Let's just assume the first inch has a wound volume of 0, to make it easier.

    (.65 / 2)^2 * pi * 9 * (.68 / .83)= 2.45 cubic inches.

    0.437 cubic inch (the volume crushed by 1 000 pellet) * 5 pellets = 2.18 cubic inches. Less than the 2.45 cubic inches crushed by a .40 S&W hollowpoint.

    Reference: Bullet Penetration: Modeling the Dynamics and the Incapacitation Resulting from Wound Trauma, by Duncan MacPherson

    http://www.firearmstactical.com/bulletpenetration.htm
     
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