.416 Remington Magnum vs. .458 Lott

[Pete D.]

Rigby

I wanted a "fun thumper" some years ago. I bought a Ruger #1 Tropical in .416 Rigby. Big beautiful case. Low pressure operation. It is a handloader's dream.
The Rigby, at least mine. delivers a 400 grain bullet at 2400 fps for an honest 5K ft.lbs. ME. If you can't kill it with 5000 ft.lbs.; it can't be killed.
Bullets - how many different kinds do you need anyway?
It can be loaded hotter but there's no point to that.
It can be downloaded to 45-70 levels.

Think Harry Selby, Bob Ruark and "The Horn of the Hunter".
Pete

 

[Pigoutultra]

It can be downloaded to 45-70 levels.

I don't think I can believe that. Due to it having such a large case, downloading to those levels would be unreliable, I wouldn't want to risk a hangfire like that. The .458 Lott can be downloaded to hot .45-70 levels because it has a smaller case capacity. And if I was looking to download a safari cartridge I would go with the .458 Lott because I would be able to cast bullets for it, while the .416 doesn't have that many bullets available.

 

[Loosedhorse]

Among African Professional Hunters...

The choice is clear: .458 Lott. (Or so I am told; I am neither African nor a PH.)

The .416 Rem Mag has developed a bad reputation among African PHs; I refer specifically to Kevin Robertson's book Africa's Most Dangerous.

In the high temps there, they have seen repeated instances of the .416 RM (presumably due to its high operating pressure, 65k psi max) result in frozen bolts that had to be hammered open with a boot--or a brick! (This info is old--2007--and it may be that there is less of a problem with newer commercial ammo.) Same author, in Sports Afield:

Ballistically, the .416 Ruger is no different than the .416 Rigby or .416 Remington...The Remington version uses a smaller case to get the same results which results in higher chamber pressures. In hellish hot conditions, rifles with weak extractors have had extraction/ejection problems.

The .458 Lott has, in contrast, a stellar reputation, even though its SAAMI max is just a bit lower (62k psi). It shoots .458 Win Mag in a pinch. It has been said that the .458 Lott is the commonest dangerous game PH rifle in Africa--but only because it is much more affordable than a .470 NE double! A good .458 Lott reference here.

Perhaps none of this matters if you're not hunting dangerous game in Africa. But I went through this exact thought process a few years ago, and bought a .458 Lott. I've wrung it out, and I still have it.

It can be downloaded to 45-70 levels.

I don't think I can believe that.

A filler, like dacron fluff, can be used to fill the empty space, and keep powder next to primer. But some would say down-loading the Lott, well, it's a sin!

 

[Pigoutultra]

Yeah I forgot to mention that since I would be buying a safari magnum rifle, downloading isn't really the priority.

 

[Scipio Africanus]

I own a CZ 550 Safari in .458 Lott. The rifle is very accurate and reliable. If versatility is what you are looking for, the Lott is your cartridge.
If you want to shoot cheap cast bullets at low velocity; your choices are myriad, you will have tons of fun, and be a better shot for it.
If you want a relatively flat shooter for light game, load 325 gr Hornady FTX bullets @ 2700+ fps and hit things very hard out to 300 yds.
If you want a little more bullet for medium game, load any of the fine 350 gr bullets also to 2700 fps.
If you desire to have a light practice load, which you will because the Lott does recoil when loaded to maximum, load 400gr Remington softs @ 45-70 velocities and have fun all day. This still gives you a very powerful round.
If you want to hunt big bovines or pachyderms, put a 500 gr @ 2300 fps or a 550 @ 2100 and have at it.
Someone alluded to this earlier, but Terry Wieland said in his book "Dangerous Game Rifles"; "If I could have one rifle it would be a .458 Lott, there is nothing you could not hunt with it." A strong endoresment from a man who knows.

 

[Loosedhorse]

The .375 H&H isn't really a compromise

How could a legend ever be a compromise? The sayings about that cartridge are uncountable, my two favorite being: "It's right for all African game and ideal for most;" and "One planet, one rifle."

Still, it is not a thick-skinned dangerous game stopper; the .416s are probably the minimums there, and higher is better if you can.

a 550 @ 2100 and have at it

I have tried to do that with the Lott and failed. But I've seen ammo makers claim it, and it sure could be. Personally, I think I'd need to move up to .450 Rigby cartridge size to make that. And now you've gotten into all sorts of new issues (expense, larger bolt-face, wider cartridge).

 

[Hizzie]

I don't think I can believe that. Due to it having such a large case, downloading to those levels would be unreliable, I wouldn't want to risk a hangfire like that. The .458 Lott can be downloaded to hot .45-70 levels because it has a smaller case capacity. And if I was looking to download a safari cartridge I would go with the .458 Lott because I would be able to cast bullets for it, while the .416 doesn't have that many bullets available.

Accurate 5744 or Trail Boss. You can find loading data to use lead bullets in 458 Lott at reduced velocity for both powders.

 

[Maverick223]

The .375 H&H isn't really a compromise, it is the minimum and is most effective against plains game. The .416 Remington is the compromise between the .375 and the .458 Lott. Being good for both plains and dangerous game but not excellent for either.

While it isn't considered a proper "stopping rifle", the .375H&H is perfectly suitable for any of the large game in Africa save for perhaps Elephant. It isn't a powder-puff by any stretch and affords you the ability to load it for much smaller game (including deer) with reduced charges, medium game at moderately long range using full charges and a ballistic tip bullet, large dangerous game (such as Kodiak) with a heavy soft point, and very large dangerous game with a heavy solid. IMO it is hands down the most versatile proper safari cartridge...with the 9.3x64mmBrenneke being a close runner-up. Personally I see no reason to go any larger unless Elephant is on the menu, in which case I figure I can purchase a rifle expressly for that purpose. OTOH if I did want a big bore "stopping rifle", and had to have it in a bolt gun, the .458Lott would be my choice; though a SxS double chambered for the .500NE or .470NE was purpose built for the task.

I kind of wonder why their rifles aren't as popular as they should be since they seem to have equal quality of the Winchester 70, Remington 700 and Ruger 77 lines.

I have handled several BRNO/CZ-550 Safari and found them to be too large, bulky, and heavy for my taste. They are also less refined and smooth than a good Winchester M-70 (CRF model of course) or a commercial Mauser (what I ultimately went with and adore). The cavernous magazine capacity is nice, but unnecessary and at the expense of size and weight. Also, they are not available (with the exception of the much more costly Safari Classics) with a barrel band sling swivel...so the stud protrudes from the forearm...at just the right place to bite you in the hand.

 

[Loosedhorse]

save for perhaps Elephant.

It's fine for elephant (if you're a client). It's taken a lot of elephant. W.D.M. Bell took over 1000 elephant with a .275 Rigby (7x57mm), and a few hundred with smaller calibers. .375's "enough gun," though not ideal.

found them to be too large, bulky, and heavy for my taste.

But a good price!

Took what I saved and had it glass-bedded, action smoothed, barrel shortened (it's much handier now), and a few more improvements...and still came out way ahead of even the lower-priced custom shops.

Speaking of which...if you have the dough, Ed Brown. Now, he'll make a Lott for you!

 

[Maverick223]

It's fine for elephant (if you're a client). It's taken a lot of elephant. W.D.M. Bell took over 1000 elephant with a .275 Rigby (7x57mm), and a few hundeed with smaller calibers. .375's "enough gun," though not ideal.

It most certainly will take an elephant (loaded properly), and didn't mean the statement to sound as if it wouldn't...it just wouldn't be my first choice for that express purpose.

But a good price!

I purchased a Whitworth Express Mauser (chambered for .375H&H but .458s, amongst others, were made as well) not long ago and while I figure it was a fair price, I don't believe it was a steal...it was priced very nearly (or perhaps slightly less) than a new CZ 550 Safari (not one of the semi-custom "Classics"). I can't imagine a better feeling/shooting express rifle. The Winchester M-70 Safari is about the same price as well. That isn't to say that the CZ is a bad rifle...it isn't (it has the main features requisite in a good DG rifle), I just feel that there are better ones for the money.

 

[Loosedhorse]

I see your point. One score for the CZ (for DG), which I liked, was the 5-shot mag capacity, instead of 3. Explains some of the bulky feel--but bulkiness may be different for different people, depending on their stature and other factors.

And no, I have never needed the 5 shots, so just a theoretical advantage. But sometimes theoretical advantages have their place.

 

[Maverick223]

Explains some of the bulky feel--but bulkiness may be different for different people, depending on their stature and other factors.

Yep, it's all up to the rifleman (which is why it's important to handle and preferably shoot the rifle before hand, particularly one with a fair amount of recoil). Furthermore I'll not knock the CZ 550 for reliability, they excell in that respect...most of my problems with it are rather nit picky (swivel stud, stock shape, size/weight, rough action, et cetera) and fairly easily fixed.

 

[45crittergitter]

Here is an interesting quote addressing the matter:

If you drive a high-quality, [.416] 400-grain bullet at 2350 fps, it is very deadly. We do not need to argue about the critter involved. It stops charging bull elephants, knocks the lights out of lions, swats bears and big bull elk and can do a remarkably fine job on deer-sized game. Is one case better than the other? Ballistically no, but practically, yes - the Remington. Remington's .416 is probably the most practical and perhaps the best medium-heavy rifle made. In the end, you cannot go wrong, unless you get confused and buy a 45 caliber rifle instead. - Ross Seyfried

 

[Maverick223]

Eh, everyone has their favorite. Sorry Ross, but there is absolutely nothing that the .416Rem. can do that the .458Lott (or a dozen others) can't. There wouldn't have been a Remington advertisement, right beside that particular excerpt, would there?

 

[DC Plumber]

I too fantasized about going to Africa and hunting something that could also kill me. Knowing I'd never really be able to afford it, I still bought an elephant gun. I found a used Ruger #1 Tropical in 458winmag for $500. A very kind gun dealer in Texas had in for sale, and included shipping as well. When I told him where I lived, he asked, "what in the h____ did I need a 458winmag for, there aren't any elephants in _______" I handload so I actually shoot it quite a bit. I used for deer hunting one year, just to see if I could be productive with the beast. I hit a nice spike buck square in the ribs at 65 yards. Not an ounce of meat ruined.

Long story short, get a big bore rifle. It's fun. But make sure you know what you're getting. I don't think there is a huge market for used big bore rifles and you might be sitting on it for a while. And yes, the .458 Lott gets my vote between the two calibers.

 

[A freakin' lion]

nice discussion! personally I prefer the 375 h&h. I can handle the recoil and hit whatever I aim at. Nice capacity. The PH likely would carry a stopper rifle if needed anyway. I think a rigby with its history and prestige and enormous case is impressive. Or consider a .450 Rigby. The Lott should be one of the more economic choices.

 

[A freakin' lion]

I've thought about this all night at work and think maybe the caliber is secondary in the decision. Maybe first find the "right" rifle. Maybe one that is well used and looks like it has hunted the dark continent? Of course it would have to be a classic African caliber. A classic Rigby or Westley Richards or even some lesser known maker with British proofs? Or even a Bubba the decent gunsmith Mauser conversion with the right bells and whistles that has character? I think that's what I would look for in a dream of Africa rifle. Don't forget getting the khakis and pith helmet, lol, to help with the illusion. Sounds absolutely perfect for a memorable gun club Turkey Shoot. Oh, and an ammo belt to show off all that gleaming brass!

 

[Hizzie]

I've thought about this all night at work and think maybe the caliber is secondary in the decision. Maybe first find the "right" rifle. Maybe one that is well used and looks like it has hunted the dark continent? Of course it would have to be a classic African caliber. A classic Rigby or Westley Richards or even some lesser known maker with British proofs? Or even a Bubba the decent gunsmith Mauser conversion with the right bells and whistles that has character? I think that's what I would look for in a dream of Africa rifle. Don't forget getting the khakis and pith helmet, lol, to help with the illusion. Sounds absolutely perfect for a memorable gun club Turkey Shoot. Oh, and an ammo belt to show off all that gleaming brass!

Used big bore rifles show up on a regular basis on the various message boards, GB, GA and GI. Elite Deal Seeker is another good search tool. If you want that "African" look and feel then the Interarms Whitworth/Mark X rifles are a good bargain. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=614570 THe CZ550 Safari Classic and Winchester M70 Safari Express are good options that are more affordable. The discontinued Ruger Safari Magnum and Kimber Caprivi are the next step up the price ladder. At least in "tradional" calibers. The Ruger Hawkeye's in 375R and 416R are rather affordable if you can accept not having H&H, Rigby or W-R as the headstamp on your brass.

 

[Maverick223]

I agree. I looked quite a bit for a old CRF M-70 Express with .375H&H chambering and bbl band swivel before deciding on my Whitworth Express and couldn't be happier. Had a custom sling made to hold a few extra cartridges of both the controlled expansion and stopping variety. The rifle fits me like a glove and has proven to be a pretty fair shooter to boot. Next up is a SxS .470NE or .500NE, but that'll probably have to wait a bit.

 

[rcmodel]

I don't think that the .45-70 is suitable for everything.

Shoot a box of Buffalo Bore heavy solids in a 7 pound Marlin lever-gun and get back to us.

rc

 

[Ole Humpback]

Shoot a box of Buffalo Bore heavy solids in a 7 pound Marlin lever-gun and get back to us.

Agreed. The weak point for the 45-70 isn't the case (to a point, all things will blow up given enough pressure), its the action of the gun. The 45-70 can be loaded with some very stout loads. Buffalo Bore has a 45-70 430gr FN @ 1925fps/3537ft/lbs that will work in any modern built action out there. That round is just under what most places in Afica now consider to be the bare minimum for DG hunting. Heck, they now have a 30-30 round shooting a 190gr bullet at 2400fps with 2600ft/lbs energy. Give it a few years and these old black-powder reload rounds will be on par with the modern rounds.

If I had to choose a 416, it'd either be a Rigby or Weatherby. The Rem Mag suffers the same problem as the Win Mag, they pack the cartridge to the max and there's no room for error.

 

[Maverick223]

Unlike the .45-70Govt., the .30-30WCF was never a BP cartridge, in fact it was the first well accepted cartridge designed for the then-new nitrocellulose propellant
(other smokeless propellants were used previously, with various degrees of success and longevity, most notably cordite in the .303Brit.).

 

[Hizzie]

Shoot a box of Buffalo Bore heavy solids in a 7 pound Marlin lever-gun and get back to us.

rc

What exactly do felt recoil and on-taget performance have to do with each other? Using your logic the more a gun "kicks" the more effective it is on game?

 

[Maple_City_Woodsman]

You can load .416 for cheaper than the 458 - you will pay about $2 per round on your first loading, using all new components. Subsequent loadings will cost you about $1.

 

[Hizzie]

You can load .416 for cheaper than the 458 - you will pay about $2 per round on your first loading, using all new components. Subsequent loadings will cost you about $1.

Really? I buy commercially loaded 458WM for $2/round. The reloader has to be able to do it cheaper. Especially since there a many more options for .458 dia bullets, both jacketed and lead, than for .416.