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44 Mag Chamber Pressure

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by D.B. Cooper, Mar 27, 2020 at 12:32 AM.

  1. D.B. Cooper

    D.B. Cooper Member

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    Page 301 of Lyman's reloading Handbook, 49th ed. states "Pressure limits for this cartridge [44 Magnum] is the same in rifles or handguns." Rifle data lists max loads for H110 and a 240 grn projectile at 23.5 grns. (No pressure listed.) For handguns, the same maximum load is listed and states a pressure of 35,700 cup. For handgun, a 300 grn projectile is listed with a max load of 18.5 grns (again, H110) and 38,300 cup. No 300 grn data for rifle is given.

    Using that as a basis for discussion, my question is thus:

    1.) If pressure limits are the same in both rifle and handgun, and max load for the same projectile and powder are the same for both rifle and handgun (given a 240 grn projectile), does it follow that the 300 grn projectile data for handgun is equally applicable in the rifle? (I think it is.)

    2.) Extending that concept, are max loads using rifle data safe for use in a handgun?

    3.) Does anyone know of other, reputable data for 44 Magnum with a 300 grn projectile listing a higher maximum charge or pressure using H110?
     
  2. AJC1

    AJC1 Member

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    All cartridges run on Sami spec and I would use any current book load in pistol or rifle. This is exactly what I do in 357. Special loads are sometimes listed, but i dont use those.
     
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  3. Demi-human

    Demi-human Member

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    SAMMI specifications are for maximum chamber pressure.
    They do not care what barrel length the chamber has.
    There may be better powders for rifle loading, but the pressure is the same.
    Thus, 2) should be correct, in published data.

    If one had a strong modern rifle, they could hot rod it.
    But, woe to the handgun that finds one of those cartridges in it...
     
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  4. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator Staff Member

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    1. Yes, max is a pressure limit, a chamber is a chamber, within reason.
    2. Yes, they are loaded to a max pressure, barrel length has nothing to do with it.
    3. Be careful.
     
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  5. starnbar

    starnbar Member

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    There is a reason for the difference and it has to do with the recoil generated by the charge weight 23 grains vs 18 grains in a handgun can make a considerable increase in recoil which some may find uncomfortable to shoot. just my 2 cents
     
  6. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

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    I am unaware of a reloading manual that stops/caps load data at some recoil level. Can you identify which load manuals do this?

    Or perhaps I misunderstood your post.
     
  7. edwardware

    edwardware Member

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    1) yes
    2) yes
    3) Discussion: I think many readers of data do not appreciate how variable pressure measurement is. Dispersion is real, and triply so between labs. I would be surprised if Hornady, Speer, and Hodgdon could all produce pressure data for a given cartridge and land under 10% intra-lab variation.

    This also explains the 'old data is hotter' phenomena. Dynamic measurements (like peak pressure) will measure higher as your equipment becomes better, ie Copper Crusher, low-freq strain gauge, modern high-freq strain gauge, etc.

    Disclaimer: I make a living designing and testing a common product that you own. I'm responsible for test data for internal use, and for regulatory compliance.
     
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  8. starnbar

    starnbar Member

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    You misunderstood the post as I used to load 25grs of 2400 w/a 240 gr jacketed in my 44 bhawk which the wife is not comfortable with however I don't recall quoting any reloading manual with this post or are you in receipt of information I don't have.
     
  9. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

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    So you would agree the data for maximum safe loads is the same, but you are saying that you (or others) have a preference for staying below max in handguns for recoil-avoidance purposes? If so, that sounds like a sensible position to me.
     
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  10. starnbar

    starnbar Member

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    Yes exactly my point and I am not an expert in the field of ballistics but every game animal I have harvested on 2 continents with handloads has been regulated and reduced to give the same poi under all most any condition I have hunted with the exception of below -10 I don't do that anymore
     
  11. murf

    murf Member

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    standard rifle twists won't normally stabilize a 300 grain bullet, so no load data.

    the hornady manual shows 19.0 grains of h110 and a 300 gn. xtp bullet @ 38,800 cup for both rifle and handgun.

    luck,

    murf
     
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  12. mdi

    mdi Member

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    To toss another chunk into the equation; SAAMI data for the groove diameter for a 44 Magnum rifle is larger than that for a handgun. SAAMI stated rifle groove diameter is .431" vs handgun groove diameter is .429"...

    Personally, I load for the 44 Magnum cartridge. I use the same data for my revolvers, for my Contender and my Puma carbine. All my guns are designed for the 44 Magnum, with no differentiation of rifle vs revolver and I have never had a need or desire to use "rifle" or anything besides "normal" handgun data...
     
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  13. Rule3

    Rule3 Member

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    http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/rifle

    Hodgdon lists the same data for pistol and rifle

    As to your last question
    3.) Does anyone know of other, reputable data for 44 Magnum with a 300 grn projectile listing a higher maximum charge or pressure using H110?

    Depending on the exact test parameters and the bullet used and whatever other variables, there may be a slight difference in the max charge (plus or minus) which would then result in a different pressure reading. They would not exceed the SAAMI specs.

    Much like any reloading manual they all have slightly different tests So the old 3% maximum reduction of H110 doesn't always hold true. Close but not always.
     
  14. D.B. Cooper

    D.B. Cooper Member

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    That's kind of what I was thinking, and that's what prompted my post here. I"m kind of hell bent on driving a 300 grn bullet out of a 1:38 rifle fast enough to stabilize for about 100 yrds.
     
  15. D.B. Cooper

    D.B. Cooper Member

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    This is something else I'm only just beginning to learn about. Thinking about trying to slug my rifle barrel or something. I've been shooting .430 projectiles in my revolver because .431 didn't shoot very well, so...not sure how best to keep interchangeability between revolver and lever gun and maintain acceptable performance in both.

    If rifle groove diameter is .431, then a cast lead projectile should be .432. If necessary, I could go back to 431 which would shoot poorly in the revolver and still be too small for the rifle, so then neither gun would perform well. smh
     
  16. 25-20 WCF

    25-20 WCF Member

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    You’ll have a better chance for slow-twist accuracy with the shorter 300-grain WFN cast bullets, although some have reported decent accuracy with 300 jacketed bullets in the slow twist rare. Can’t vouch for the safety of their loads though....


    .
     
  17. D.B. Cooper

    D.B. Cooper Member

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    Yeah, I plan to use a cast projectile.
     
  18. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

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    I don't know if a lever action provides better case head support than a revolver. Both Hatcherites and Ackleyites essentially believe the case is strong and the action is weak, but those Cult belief systems are nonsense. The case is simply a gas seal and the case head has to be supported or it will rupture. Given that the case head is brass, there are limitations to how much pressure it can hold, depending on how it is supported.

    I wonder if this was fired in a M700

    DjTGMx0.jpg

    As can be seen, the action this was fired in has a lot of case head hanging out unsupported, which is OK as long as pressures are kept low. Which obviously did not happen, and this is the end result. The reloader was lucky the sidewalls did not blow.

    ayF5ybM.jpg

    This is an interesting cartridge. The maker created a steel screw on case head. This cartridge can take more pressure, given the same case head support, as a brass case. Whether that is good for the gun is another matter. But it is an interesting concept.

    yCkR7Cb.jpg

    I have not conducted any stress analysis of loads in lever actions versus revolvers, I do know that both are not that rigid. Rear locking lever actions are very springy, all things considered, and you might have unlock issues with high pressure loads. But I think the real limitation is the case head support, and unless the case head is supported better in your lever action, than in your revolver, than the maximum pressures ought to be the same.

    This might be of interest, data on 300 grain bullets and the 44 Magnum

    http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2020 at 7:16 PM
  19. David Barr

    David Barr Member

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  20. David Barr

    David Barr Member

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    This is a lever gun that came into the shop. The reloader was experimenting with maximum loads with devastating results. The caliber was 45-70
     
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  21. jmorris

    jmorris Member

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    Humans, different ones, on a different day, with a different lot of powder, with a firearm, with different leads to the rifling, maybe with different measuring equipment.

    I have seen data change over the decades from the same source, generally down, I presume to be driven by lawyers that don’t know anything except “less” is better. Why the 10mm is all but dead, what’s the point if your doing the same thing with less case volume?


    4th edition Hornady, Rifle, pistol and “TC”.

    A6FB29B6-60F7-4068-9E7A-0E6C300D22C6.jpeg 8E7BC453-107B-44E3-847E-D8D12E28B4C0.jpeg A3DFF1B5-5FC3-43A1-901B-2F3E1FB79A67.jpeg

    Also a good time to ponder what I said before, since 296 and H110 are the same powders in different containers...
     
  22. earlthegoat2

    earlthegoat2 Member

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    It is well known that the barrel tenon is the weak point on Marlins. Still though, that is some serious over pressure.
     
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  23. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

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    I would say, the barrel ruptured before the receiver ring broke.

    There is nothing made by man that cannot be unmade by man.
     
  24. AJC1

    AJC1 Member

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    If the separation did not hurt him the dislocated shoulder would have
     
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  25. Caplock

    Caplock Member

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    Handloader magazine had some plus P loads for 44 mag some years back. Loads for Red Hawk and Super Red Hawk pistols only. Heavy lead only bullets. Somewhere in the 42,000 PSI range if I remember right.

    Shot only a few through my Super Red Hawk. Wont say it was life changing but did sell my 500 S&W. 44 mag is all I need in a handgun.
     
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