44 May Be Special. But it Ain't for Defense!

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The .44Spl's pressure ceiling of 15,500psi is low but many factory loads are even well below that. A 200gr bullet should be going a good 1000fps but many are not more than 700-800fps.
 
For the most part I don't care much about number crunching. The facts are that many a human has quickly met his maker with the little .22LR . and many have continued the fight with being shot by cartridges like the 9mm luger and the .45 acp. For me there is no magic numbers that one could put together to assure the all around best results.

So my opinion on stopping a fight works off the stopping power of a well place bullet. For me accuracy is the king of stopping a fight. ( I do not ignore the factors of energy, bullet size and weight, etc)
I work with three cartridges for my protection. They include the .32 H&R magnum that I typically carry due to size and weight of the gun , the .45 ACP in my semiauto's, and my bedside favorite of a revolver in .44 spl. I shoot an 85 grain Federal factory defense cartridge for the .32 , and for the others I don't worry much over what loading and bullet design - both .44 and .45 can take care of business with out picking around on velocity or penetration, or expansion and meet my comfort zone. JMO
 
As a general rule if the bullet is well designed for the velocity it's loaded for it will perform well regardless of the particular velocity. I don't believe my glock 30 is pushing a lot more than 900 but the speer gold dot load I selected seems to work great in testing.

I'm sure a nice .44spl with an appropriately designed bullet is fine even at mild speeds.
 
Just in case my earlier post didn't read clear with my opinion, let me ad this as a reply comment to the original headline of this post . BS , I trust the .44 Special for defense with pretty much any factory loading. I don't believe it takes some special design bullet to get adequate penetration on human size critters, and it is a .44 which is like a pre-expanded .356/357 bullet. So when it is presented as a not for defense cartridge I just want to roll my eyes and shake my head. .
 
44 special for defense? I assume against bad guys?
I certainly dont want hole in/hole out(innocent by standers. Still cant figure why people dont keep this in mind when buying defense ammo)
Bullet in and stay in is what i am for.
Shouldnt gel tests be conducted with at least hoody/sweashirt type material in front of the gel?
I wouldnt feel under gunned with an accurate 240 gr soft lead wadcutter going 6-650 fps
Just some thoughts
 
the Black Spot said:
Shouldnt gel tests be conducted with at least hoody/sweashirt type material in front of the gel?
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Cut right from the article off American Rifleman:

Two rounds of each load were fired into bare gel from 10 feet to establish a baseline for performance. Three rounds of each load were then fired through two layers of cotton shirt material, a layer of Polartec 200 fleece insulation and a layer of denim. This simulates the heavy clothing barrier as used by the FBI and other law enforcement agencies to test hollow-point effectiveness.
 
Something that requires serious debate is the idea that only factory ammo, and never reloads, should be used for self-defense.

Now it stands to reason that factory designed and marketed for defense is going to be of the highest quality with clean burning low flash powder and the like. We can probably rest easy knowing that this premium ammo is sealed against moisture, etc and should be as reliable as ammunition can be. With that said, I can buy premium reloading components, to include sealants, that should allow me to produce a hand-loaded cartridge that's as good as anything I might buy. Now I probably won't really save any money going this route but I still should be able to produce ammunition that's as accurate and reliable as anything on the market.

This brings up the idea of using handloads for self-defense. Noted author Massad Ayoob made a career out of writing about the liability of using reloads for defense. He used to write for American Handgunner and had a monthly column called the "Ayoob Files." He would monthly exam self-defense shootings and analyze and examine each case in a manner similar to what might be seen from a court of legal preceding.

So was Mas right all those years ago? What are your thoughts and/or experiences.
 
if you have to use your handgun to save your life, i don,t think you will be thinking do i have reloads in or factory ammo in it. eastbank.
 
This brings up the idea of using handloads for self-defense. Noted author Massad Ayoob made a career out of writing about the liability of using reloads for defense. He used to write for American Handgunner and had a monthly column called the "Ayoob Files." He would monthly exam self-defense shootings and analyze and examine each case in a manner similar to what might be seen from a court of legal preceding.

So was Mas right all those years ago? What are your thoughts and/or experiences.
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These are my thoughts. You are right on with Mass repeating the mantra about using handloads. It was his personal point to make every chance he got. My uncle was a homicide detective on the Ft Worth PD and then investigator in the D.A.s office till his death. So I asked him about handloads. He stated they shouldn't be a problem as long as the shooting was justified. He even gave his own wife handloaded 32 long rounds for her house gun.

And I have asked several other cops about handloads and each one looked at me like I had a third eye for even asking the question. And each one repeated what my uncle said. Just make sure you had the right to shoot. If you feel better with factory ammo then use that. For almost all of my guns except shotguns I have no factory ammo. But if you use handloads just don't do something stupid like make exploding tips or mercury tipped bullets. Those would be a big problem even if you used them on Osama Bin Laden.

I wouldn't put a lot of stock on that article. The ammo chosen did look weak but I bet it would work as designed. And if you weren't impressed with the ammo tested then there is other brands loaded to higher pressure. It just cost a little more. I don't read many gun mags anymore. I think you can get better information from some of the testers on Youtube and internet post. And you can tell pretty quick who knows what they are talking about and who is just blowing smoke.
 
Ratshooter said:
These are my thoughts. You are right on with Mass repeating the mantra about using handloads. It was his personal point to make every chance he got. My uncle was a homicide detective on the Ft Worth PD and then investigator in the D.A.s office till his death. So I asked him about handloads. He stated they shouldn't be a problem as long as the shooting was justified.
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The case can be made that, if handloads are THAT big an issue the bullet companies wouldn't sell JHP bullets and/or would have some kind of warning label printed on the box. I suppose the correct answer is, and should be, that if the use of deadly force is justified it is justified regardless of the tool(s) used to defend oneself. And normally it wouldn't even be a concern given the availability of excellent factory ammo for the 9mm, 40 S&W, 45 Auto, 357 Magnum, etc. 44 Special is somewhat of an anomaly given its SAAMI max pressure.


Ratshooter said:
I wouldn't put a lot of stock on that article. The ammo chosen did look weak but I bet it would work as designed. And if you weren't impressed with the ammo tested then there is other brands loaded to higher pressure. It just cost a little more. I don't read many gun mags anymore. I think you can get better information from some of the testers on Youtube and internet post. And you can tell pretty quick who knows what they are talking about and who is just blowing smoke.
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I think the chrono numbers are what they are. Look at the manufacturer specs and you'll see that most published velocities are from longer barrels. Buffalo Bore does publish short barrel 44 velocities but they seem to be about it. And the only reloading data I've seen from a shorter barrel is in the Hornady manual. Hornady used a Bulldog for the loads listed.
 
Wow! Comments here make one wonder. First the FBI protocol was tied the the alleged failure of the 9MM Silver Tip ammo during the Miami shoot out almost thirty years ago. Their criteria is a worst case cross body shot thru 12 inches of flesh. Take a minute and stand with your back to the wall and have someone measure from the wall to the to of your chest. You're gonna find that it's usually way less than 12 inches with your vital organs about halfway thru. Yes hitting the spinal column does almost require a thru and thru.

Most of us that are not LE's are going to have a hard time convincing a homicide investigator why we shot someone thru the side. And remember if your bullet will cruise thru 12 inches and the dude you shoot is only about 9 then the bullet is going to be a thru and thru and if it hits someone else guess who could be charged (not to mention sued).

If you compare this fellows data to that for standard 45 ammo, you'll see that they are not all that far apart. Does anyone here really believe that a 45 is not a lethal caliber.
 
Sarge7402 said:
Most of us that are not LE's are going to have a hard time convincing a homicide investigator why we shot someone thru the side. And remember if your bullet will cruise thru 12 inches and the dude you shoot is only about 9 then the bullet is going to be a thru and thru and if it hits someone else guess who could be charged (not to mention sued).
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The laws and policies governing American law enforcement officers are not much different from those of private citizens when deadly force is concerned. A person may defend himself from an attacker who displays an intent to cause him grievous bodily harm or physical injury. The same is true regarding defense of a third party. If someone is attacking my wife with a knife I'm under no obligation to shoot the attacker in his front side.

Police officers are under similar legal obligation and haven't been allowed to shoot someone just for running away since Garner vs Tennessee.

Also, by your reasoning, pretty much everything other the 380 Auto is going to punch through both sides of an attacker if the maximum depth of penetration is nine inches.
 
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Listen up folks. I didn't say you couldn't shoot someone from the side, I just said you're going to have a job selling it to an investigator. And you are right a lot of ammo is going to punch right thru most human targets. Remember you are responsible for what that bullet does even after it exits the bad guys.

As for rounds that don't completely punch thru, 9MM Winchester STHP, 45 ACP CCI 200 (the flying ashtray) and most glasser safety slugs.

But hey what you use is between you and your attorney
 
Thanks for the link, I had not seen it. I'm not being critical of the author and I'm not really shocked at the results as I've found that pretty much as well.

I know he was trying to keep his tests within the SAAMI spec. for the cartridge but Underwood and Buffalo Bore do make some better loads for the .44 (for modern revolvers and of course with a bit higher than standard pressure). I'm guessing the Double Tap folks do too - good outfit.

Personally, I'm not worried about "over penetration" (others might, given dissimilar circumstances). I do want at least 14 to 16" of penetration in gel (which is hardly a guarantee of how it penetrates in people or animals). I would not be worried, myself, about a load that gave 24" or more.

I do occasionally carry a .44 Spl. as a BUG - it either has Gold Dots in it or a hand-load with a 245gr Keith HP (soft) at 900 fps. I have shot the Underwood 200 gr. full wad-cutter - it gets ~1000 fps from a 4" and I figure it would be a pretty good load if you did not need it for a crowded environment.

Sig also makes a 240 at 800 (I assume that is a bit over SAAMI pressures) but I have not seen any on the shelf.

Jim
 
Jim Higginbotham said:
Thanks for the link, I had not seen it. I'm not being critical of the author and I'm not really shocked at the results as I've found that pretty much as well.

I know he was trying to keep his tests within the SAAMI spec. for the cartridge but Underwood and Buffalo Bore do make some better loads for the .44 (for modern revolvers and of course with a bit higher than standard pressure). I'm guessing the Double Tap folks do too - good outfit.

Personally, I'm not worried about "over penetration" (others might, given dissimilar circumstances). I do want at least 14 to 16" of penetration in gel (which is hardly a guarantee of how it penetrates in people or animals). I would not be worried, myself, about a load that gave 24" or more.

I do occasionally carry a .44 Spl. as a BUG - it either has Gold Dots in it or a hand-load with a 245gr Keith HP (soft) at 900 fps. I have shot the Underwood 200 gr. full wad-cutter - it gets ~1000 fps from a 4" and I figure it would be a pretty good load if you did not need it for a crowded environment.

Sig also makes a 240 at 800 (I assume that is a bit over SAAMI pressures) but I have not seen any on the shelf.

Jim
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Underwood says the 200gr Gold Dot loads are within SAAMI pressures even though they generate pretty impressive muzzle velocity. They are using a propriety propellant that allows for these velocities while staying within the psi max. If that's true that's pretty darned amazing and would make the Underwood stuff a "must have" for personal defense.

With that said, I have had some accuracy issues with the hottest Underwood Gold Dot load. It will keyhole out of my GP-100. I have been able to duplicate this with handloads but only if I push the GD up to 1,000 fps. If I keep the speeds to 950-ish or below the bullet actually shoots well out to 25 yards which is the farthest distance I've shot on paper. Same is true with the Underwood "Bulldog Only" load. It is just a bit slower than the other Gold Dot load and it shoots without showing any signs of keyholing.

I've talked to Underwood about this and they tell me that they've tested the hotter load in their own GP-100. They've shot this load out to 70 yards without loss of accuracy. Maybe my particular sample has a slightly larger bore or cylinder throats.

Anyway, the Bulldog Only load is probably an excellent choice as long as it doesn't push the Gold Dot so hard that it fragments. I doubt it does.
 
Looks to me like most of the ammo tested in the article did well. Expansion is not needed to incapacitate an attacker with a large bore caliber (at least compared to 9mm or 38). Expansion in a 44 is more important to avoid over penetration if that is an important factor in your situation.
 
Ratshooter said:
My uncle was a homicide detective on the Ft Worth PD and then investigator in the D.A.s office till his death. So I asked him about handloads. He stated they shouldn't be a problem as long as the shooting was justified. He even gave his own wife handloaded 32 long rounds for her house gun.

And I have asked several other cops about handloads and each one looked at me like I had a third eye for even asking the question
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Hardly credible sources, I'm afraid.

USBP379 said:
I suppose the correct answer is, and should be, that if the use of deadly force is justified it is justified regardless of the tool(s) used to defend oneself.
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Not really. That's because whether the act was justified will be decided after the fact by piecing together incomplete and possibly contradictory evidence.

There is no "liability" in using handloads, for any purpose.

The issue is risk--risk concerning whether the evidence shows that the use of force was justified. That's an issue whether the self-proclaimed defender used a handgun, a rifle, or a shotgun, ora nine-iron or a hammer, for that matter.

Back on ammunition--if there is disagreement among testimony or other evidence about the distance at which the shooting took place, and if settling that disagreement could well be pivotal to the outcome of a trial, and if gunshot residue pattern evidence could settle the issue, and if patterns from the shooter's ammunition would be helpful to the defense--then and only then would the use of handloads become important.

At that point it is not debatable--if the test data are not admissible, and under the rules of evidence in civil and criminal courts in all states, the test data from handholds would not be admissible, the jury will never see the data, or hear what an expert witness for the defense would have to say about them.

That very small risk would stop me from carrying handloads for self defense if effective factory ammunition were available.

See the sticky on the subject.

Regarding the .44 Special, I am not convinced that there are no factory loads that could reasonably be relied upon for defense.

Ratshooter said:
I wouldn't put a lot of stock on that article. The ammo chosen did look weak but I bet it would work as designed. And if you weren't impressed with the ammo tested then there is other brands loaded to higher pressure. It just cost a little more.
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That's my take.
 
That's the theory and the Harold Fish case is one incident that always brought up, same for the Daniel Bias case. This has been hashed and re-hashed numerous times. Even recently. True, a lot of stuff 'could' be used against you but the simple fact of the matter is, it is still an unproven theory.
 
USBP379 said:
This doesn't pertain to handloads but it is food for thought. Anything that can cast the shooter in a negative light will likely be exploited by those in power with political agendas or personal views.
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I don't really think so.

However, if the shooter is a defendant in court (and that means that the case is not clear cut), anything that might go to state of mind could pose a problem.

Personally, I do not think that the mere fact that a defendant used handloads would likely be much of an issue in and of itself.

Combined with other things--records of his own penetration test comparisons, tests to achieve maximum velocity or safe pressure, signs about shooting trespassers, etc-- it might become an issue. But alone, I tend to doubt it.
 
CraigC

A 200gr bullet should be going a good 1000fps but many are not more than 700-800fps.
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Indeed. And one may handload this round and use it in a revolver of suitable strength. I wonder, though, at what point would this level of performance begin to erode the thinner forcing cone on the nifty S&W 696... Do I aim for 900 fps instead?... I digress, but only slightly.

If or when the matter of "hand loaded ammunition" comes up in trial, why wouldn't the defense attorney simply state that his client used a .44 Special rather than the "brutal" .44 Magnum?
 
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