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4473 mess up

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Axis II, Oct 28, 2022.

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  1. Axis II

    Axis II Member

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    Drove almost 1.5hrs one way to buy a certain pistol last Saturday and got a call today saying I misspelled my street name. He had me doing the form on a tablet smaller than a piece of paper. I double checked it, the counter guy checked it and had another check it. I get a call just now saying I need to come in before next week and correct it. He’s claiming I had the letters backwards which I know is complete BS.

    For you FFL is this actually a law that I have to do this?
     
  2. Y-T71

    Y-T71 Member

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    Not an FFL

    I admit to not using my "middle" (actually my 1st name legally) very often at all and have a hard time writing it in cursive; I only write it on things like a 4473 or, more recently, medical forms, and it's quite illegible but I don't mis-spell it, just write it illegibly.

    When I was 10 years old I decided I didn't like my name the way it was so I changed the position of my first and middle name on my own.

    Not a problem in the mid-late 70's but it hasn't really came up until post 9/11.

    I've bought numerous firearms, cars, a house, got numerous drivers licenses and even got a passport using a name that was not on my birth certificate, all because I arbitrarily changed it myself on a whim :D
     
    270OKIE likes this.
  3. Axis II

    Axis II Member

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    And before everyone gets all butthurt saying just go do it the issue is I am out of town for work for 3 weeks so can’t rush up there.
     
    270OKIE and stillquietvoice like this.
  4. Bfh_auto

    Bfh_auto Member

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    That sucks. I feel your pain. I've had time in my life where I couldn't "just take care of it". What seems simple to some time wise can be a killer for others. Same thing with money. It may just be 50 dollars for one. For another it's whether they get to work that week.
     
    270OKIE, Meeks36 and stillquietvoice like this.
  5. PapaG

    PapaG Member

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    Go through the BATFE audit just one time and deal with the petty crap they'll ding you for and you'll understand why a dealer has to be careful. Ain't like days of old when most of the agents were helpful. The weaponized government is searching for ways to shut dealers down. Illinois has legislated half the dealers here out of existence in the past few years. The 4473 HAS to be correct.
    Heck, mine got checked at least four times at Bass Pro last gun I bought. (and probably last one I will buy there)
     
  6. reddog81

    reddog81 Member

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    How much is it worth to you for it to be correct? Not much.
    How much is it worth for them to get it correct? Apparently a lot.
    Tell them they can bring the laptop to you or cover the cost for you to drive to them. Or ask if it can be done via email or fax.
     
    270OKIE, wally, defjon and 6 others like this.
  7. pharmer

    pharmer Member

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    Awhile back I bought a rifle from the local WalMart. Did the 4473 on their computer. Checked and accepted. About a week later I get a call from the counter guy to come back and "correct" the entry. Even though their box "auto corrects" Saint to St for the town name (as do most address apps) I went back and changed it because their counter guy was genuinely decent. Only concern is how they got my cell# to call me, I never gave it to them. Joe
     
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  8. bassjam

    bassjam Member

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    I'd ask them to mail/fax/email the form. I certainly wouldn't drive 90 minutes back.

    Based on the below I'm note sure you're under any obligation to fix it, sounds like they just want good recordkeeping. Probably in case they get audited.

    https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/if-...-after-transfer-what-procedure-record-correct

     
  9. Axis II

    Axis II Member

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    So my Gf and I both bought the same gun one the same day and she said 3 people checked mine over. The guy on the phone kept saying paperwork. Something doesn’t add up. I asked for it to be mailed and explained I am in training, out of town 13hrs a day for work for 3 weeks he said we’ll come fix it when you get done with training. I don’t get how it takes them a week to realize it was messed up. This is also a large, national chain too so not really worried about a mom and pop place getting shut down because of it.
     
    stillquietvoice likes this.
  10. shafter

    shafter Member

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    At the end of the day it's up to you to make sure everything on the form is accurate. That's what you are doing when you sign it. The shop can check it but ultimately it's your mistake and you need to fix it.

    I feel your pain. Sometimes no matter how many times something is checked things fall through the cracks.
     
    Electrod47 likes this.
  11. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    If you did indeed misspell your street name, you messed up. You need to correct your error.
    Its no big deal to correct, but there is a defined process to make correction. The instructions on pg3 explain how to do it.

    When you sign the 4473 you certify under penalty of law that your answers are true, correct and complete.
    If you misspelled the street name you violated federal law.:what:
     
    alsaqr, 270OKIE and PapaG like this.
  12. jmr40

    jmr40 Member

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    Dealers are under the microscope a lot more than in the past.

    It's been many years ago, but after I got home after buying a rifle, I got a call from the gunshop. When filling out the forms he noted there was one digit difference in the SN between the 4473 and what he had in his record book. He just asked me to confirm what the actual SN was. I don't recall which form was correct, but he handled the correction on his end. This was a local guy I'd known for years, but I'm sure today it would have been much more complicated.

    We all complain about the time it takes to buy from most big box stores. They have 3-4 different people check the paperwork at some places and it can take the better part of an hour to get out the door after you pay and fill out the forms. It is to prevent things just like this.
     
    270OKIE likes this.
  13. Axis II

    Axis II Member

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    That’s my thing and one guys above are arguing. It took 3 people to verify what was done on the tablet yet when the “paperwork” printed it showed up failress instead of fairless. Now I have to waste 3hrs of my day and fuel 6 days later to fix someone that someone being paid to do didn’t catch. This is why stores need to stop doing tablets and do paper. Drove 45min to a store prior to Rangeusa (who’s wanting me to fix the error they assisted me in making by 3 guys not catching it) and was told they had the guns we wanted. Did the paperwork and the guy brings them out and they were wrong because after 3x asking on the phone if it’s the bug out package and 2x in person he didn’t pay attention and tried selling us 2 guns that were not what we wanted. Drive 1.5hrs to Rangeusa told them I didn’t want display guns which he failed to tell me they only had until I got there and now wants me to come back and fix 1 letter.
     
  14. shafter

    shafter Member

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    Yeah you do have to fix it. He can't make changes to a form that you signed saying was complete and accurate. I completely get the aggravation but you aren't paying for a professional proofreader.
     
  15. 230RN

    230RN I keep pushing that pendulum back.

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    "They"screwed something up on a 4473 of mine a couple of years ago, so they called and asked if I could come in and correct it. They couldn't do it by word of mouth so I drove 2 miles over there and made the slight change. They gave me a brick of .22s for my trouble.

    Nowadays, brick of ammo or nothing, it pays in the big picture of things to help them be scrupulous about 4473s. While you and I understand that "everybody makes mistakes," the ATF apparently does not.

    Name change error?

    My understanding is that under common law, your name is whatever you hold out to the public and the only reason for going to court is to convince "people" to change their records. I had a similar case when I came out to Colorado. When Colo DMV asked for my full name I recited it with my two middle names and son of a gun if they didn't put both on the license so it came out on two lines:

    Terrance First middle name
    Peter Family surname.

    The second middle name was one I gave myself at my confirmation at age 12-13 or whenever, so it ended up looking like two full names.

    In those days you could do this, I just asked them to re-issue if with just my first and last names and they did it, no big deal. Nowadays you'd probably have to take a truth serum and cheek swab and lie detector test to make a simple change like that.

    Hey, think Marion Morrison.

    Maurice Micklewhite.

    Archibald Leach.

    And last but not least, the immortal Norma Jeane Mortenson.

    (John Wayne, Michael Caine, Cary Grant, Marilyn Monroe)

    Terrance Twothirtyaren
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2022
    NewHamshooter likes this.
  16. bassjam

    bassjam Member

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    Again, I wouldn't waste your time and fuel unless they prove to you that this needs to be completed in person. There's a procedure to fix errors, and the language used makes it sound like fixing those errors is voluntary and not mandatory. Additionally, the changes are completed on a photocopy of the original. Since they'd still retain the original, there's no reason this can't be done by mail, especially since the error is a minor typo on a street name. Page 3 has the "official" details:

    https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/n...nsees-newsletter-march-2013-volume-2/download

    If they do insist on doing this in person, I'd try to get them to come to you. At the most, meet somewhere in the middle. They'd have to make a pretty severe legal threat for me to spend 3 hours driving.
     
  17. Axis II

    Axis II Member

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    Heck, I didn’t even wanna spend 3hrs driving to buy it but it was the only place around that had 2 of the package deals. Even online was out of stock. I wasn’t going to but next thing I know our grocery store trip was canceled and she was on her way to the gun store.
     
  18. Bandit67

    Bandit67 Member

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    I feel for you Axis. You always seem to have bad luck
     
  19. Axis II

    Axis II Member

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    I tell ya when it rains it pours
    This makes twice at two different locations the electronic one messed up. A previous one instead of Lake it was Lak and they demanded I come back. I told them maybe if they did paper and checked better I wouldn’t be called a week later. Yeah, I am to blame but when you have 2-3 people who are paid to do this that’s on them not me. 30min-45min I’d fix it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2022
  20. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    How about proofreading the information you typed yourself?;)
    How about asking for a paper 4473?
    That the same error has occurred twice now tells me you've messed up twice now.

    You are blaming the LGS for not catching YOUR error. The only opportunity they had to compare the address you wrote was last Saturday. Presumably you left the store with your drivers license. I have no idea how six days later they discover your DL address spelling is different than what you wrote.
    It doesn't make sense.
     
  21. Johnm1

    Johnm1 Member

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    Dogtown pegged it. It's your certification that is the issue not who made the mistake or who even helped make the mistake. . Even though you didn't misspell it, that isn't the question. The seller only certifies section A,C, and E (edit typo D). The buyer certifies section B, where the incorrect information is. It doesn't matter who misspelled it you certifed it was correct.

    However unlikely we think this would be prosecuted, the judge/jury won't ask the people who checked it if they signed it with incorrect information because they didn't. They certified sections A,C, and E (edit typo D) They'll ask you if you signed/certifiedsection B. Answer yes and you've admitted to a felony for providing incorrect information. Answer no and you've committed perjury.




    The instructions from page 3

    If the transferor/seller or the transferee/buyer discovers that an ATF Form 4473 is incomplete or improperly completed after the firearm has been transferred, and the transferor/seller or the transferee/buyer wishes to correct the omission(s) or error(s), photocopy the inaccurate form and make any necessary additions or revisions to the photocopy. The transferor/seller should only make changes to Sections A, C, and E. The transferee/buyer should only make changes to Sections B and D. Whoever made the changes should initial and date the changes. The corrected photocopy should be attached to the original Form 4473 and retained as part of the transferor’s/seller’s permanent records.[QUOTE/]

    From form 4473

    Section D - Must Be Completed Personally By Transferee/Buyer
    If the transfer of the firearm(s) takes place on a different day from the date that the transferee/buyer signed Section B, the transferee/buyer must complete Section D immediately prior to the transfer of the firearm(s).

    I certify that all of my responses in Section B of this form are still true, correct, and complete.

    30. Transferee’s/Buyer’s Signature. 31. Recertification Date

    Month Day Year


    "I certify that my answers in Section B are true, correct, and complete.
    I have read and understand the Notices, Instructions, and Definitions on ATF Form 4473. I understand that answering “yes” to question 21.a. if I am not the actual transferee/buyer is a crime punishable as a felony under Federal law, and may also violate State and/or local law. I understand that a person who answers “yes” to any of the questions 21.b. through 21.k. is prohibited from receiving or possessing a firearm. I understand that a person who answers “yes” to question 21.l.1. is prohibited from receiving or possessing a firearm, unless the person answers “yes” to question 21.l.2. and provides the documentation required in 26.d. I also understand that making any false oral or written statement, or exhibiting any false or misrepresented identification with respect to this transaction, is a crime punishable as a felony under Federal law, and may also violate State and/or local law. I further understand that the repetitive purchase of firearms for the purpose of resale for livelihood and profit without a Federal firearms license is a violation of Federal law.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2022
  22. Mosin77

    Mosin77 Member

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    My question is, since when is correct spelling a matter of law? If a reasonable person can deduce what was intended, it would seem the form was not incorrectly filled out. Yes, this is pie in the sky musing over moral rectitude, not down-to-earth recognition of the reality of ATF tyranny… but I don’t like the government or the unwilling bureaucrats they’ve recruited (gunshop employees) to make life more complicated for honest citizens who just want to buy a gun.

    Nowadays (since September 2022) the ATF is asking for addresses of everyone who gets a “delay,” so if it comes back as a deny, they can turn it over to local law enforcement. There will probably be a lot more scrutiny of the Address part of the form now than there ever was before, because previously the ATF never asked for it. Also the dealer has to confirm on calling in (or presumably submitting online) a 4473, that the name and address on the 4473 “exactly match” the valid government issued photo ID. That’s not new, but with the possibility that the info might be requested, the stakes just got higher. I think there’s a strong onus on both the dealer and the customer to get it right. If the ATF discovers a discrepancy and makes an issue of it, dealer will get a chewing out (at best) and may lose their license (at worst.) The customer has also just committed perjury, technically, by “lying” on the form.
     
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  23. bassjam

    bassjam Member

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    I disagree that a mispelling or typo is a felony. The language the ATF uses backs me up on this: "and the FFL or the buyer wish to make a record of the discovery".

    If a mispelling or type was a big deal they wouldn't leave making changes up to the discretion of the buyer/seller.
     
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  24. buck460XVR

    buck460XVR Member

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    This is what I have been doing as of late. Makes the clerk grumble, but with my fat fingers and the damn autocorrect, In the long run, it is faster and easier.

    A few years back I got a call from my dealer that I too had misspelled my street address. Claimed I had put two m's in the street name instead of one as shown in the city directory. Told him after living on the street for 40 years I knew how to spell it, and since that is how it is spelled on my drivers license, tax forms and my CWC permit, it would be false for me to write it any other way. For the record, it's spelled differently on the street signs at opposite ends of the block.

    I wonder if anyone has ever been prosecuted for perjury for inadvertent spelling errors on a 4473?
     
  25. Johnm1

    Johnm1 Member

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    The OPs original question was

    I don't believe a misspelling/typo is initially considered a felony. That is why they have the correction language. Intentionally not correcting incorrect information per the instructions is the real question.

    Again, Intentionally not correcting incorrect information per the instructions is the real question.

    What is the chain store supposed to do once they find the error and the buyer refuses to change it? Leave it and get dinged on their next audit? Keep records of their attempts to have the buyer correct it? Report it and document the reporting? I'm not sure. But if I were the seller I'd protect my license.
     
    jar likes this.
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