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44mag carbine bullet

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by Axis II, Nov 18, 2019.

  1. Jack B.

    Jack B. Member

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  2. mcb

    mcb Member

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    The FTX is a very different bullet than the XTP. It is fairly well documented (over at 450bushmaster.net) that is has a tendency to come apart when used in 450 Bushmaster. That said I don't think there are many 44 Mag carbines that can sling the 44 cal version of the FTX at 2200 fps.

    In 45 Caliber there is also a lot of difference between the HP/XTP and the XTP/MAG. Hornady published impact velocity ranges for all the XTP bullets make sure you're getting the right one for your anticipated impact (not muzzle) velocity.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2019
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  3. brewer12345

    brewer12345 Member

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    I would go with cast, preferably an alloy with a bunch of tin. Barring that, I have had good accuracy with the nosler jhp, so I would probably try the jsp version
     
  4. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    Inappropriate transference.

    The fact the deep curl’s can be used at higher speeds than standard rot-gut plated bullets does not change their means of manufacture. The Deep Curl is a plated bullet.

    1203AA12-EDA0-4909-8E6C-DC68FEEE0095.jpeg

    The “Deep Curl” line used to be named the “Gold Dot Hunting” line, and I’ve always thought this new marketing copy is intentionally misleading, because it gives the impression of a conventional flux bonding process, rather than the TRUE electroplating process they use. Even with the Gold Dots, their marketing is misleading - again, calling it a bonded “Uni-Cor process, instead of admitting it’s simply electroplating.

    18CE15F9-BFAD-4C57-8E50-EF4FED5E0E0F.jpeg

    Thickly plated as it might be, it’s still a plated bullet.
     
  5. 200Apples
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    200Apples Member

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    Yeah, ok, but Speer's still calling it a jacket.

    My point was that a typical, plated bullet, such as a Berry's, is limited to +/- 1250 fps.

    This is not the case with the Speer.
     
  6. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    None of the XTP’s are great, but for their price point and the simple task of hunting whitetails, they work. I like the 300’s a bit better than the 240’s, but I’m shooting them seated to cylinder length over an over-book load of H110/W296, living in the second cannelure. The 240’s don’t have a “SBH cannelure, and aren’t rated to as wide of expansion velocity window as the 300’s, and aren’t as heavy, so I prefer 300’s for my Rugers. They do what I ask, and I get them dirt cheap.

    Pretty common for rifles to fail to stabilize the 300’s. The 240 kills as well and will stabilize. The distraction towards the 300 was my fault - I only mentioned it to describe my own use of the 300’s, not to recommend it for yours. You’ll be fine with a 240.

    The FTX is a little different than the XTP’s. Recall, the FTX tip does help initiate expansion (and in my experience, improve expansion reliability), and the 450 does speeds with a pistol bullet which they were never intended to survive.

    Consider, however, the fact any cup and core expanding bullet designed to open in flesh is likely going to have a bad day when running into bone. Whether you smear a tip, fracture a jacket, or separate a core, bone is destructive to bullets. It’s been exceptionally rare, in killing hundreds of big game animals, that I have ever HAD to place a bullet through bone. I’ve many times CHOSEN to do so, but I can’t think of a time when I HAD to put a bullet through bone on the way in - and in those cases, I’m punching the BACKSIDE shoulder, such the killing damage is already done before striking the joint to knock a wheel off before any potential death sprint. Also in those cases, willingly trading some meat loss for ensured recovery, rather than potentially losing the entire harvest. I can’t understand when guys talk about punching the near shoulder, and equally can’t relate to concerns for bullet integrity upon striking bone - again, the deer is mortally injured before my bullet reaches the far shoulder, so it’s of little importance whether the bullet penetrates, deflects, or fragments.

    Hardcast is a cheap punt too many are too quick to recommend. I was mislead down that road. That degree of penetration and weight retention is absolutely unnecessary for whitetail hunting with a 44mag, and sacrifices speed of death when bone is NOT involved (as it shouldn’t be). And in 2019 and beyond, anything I may have previously reached for a Hardcast bullet to accomplish, I would rather achieve with a Swift A-Frame or a copper solid than a hard cast - copper truly WILL retain shape and punch through bone, instead of smearing it’s meplat like hardcast. I’ve fired hundreds of pounds of lead, and taken dozens of game animals with it - it’ll be an odd day if I ever do again.
     
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  7. 200Apples
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    200Apples Member

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    Another question for you, VT... take a copper solid, not a gilding metal alloy solid, but a pure copper solid such as made by Barnes...

    Would these pure copper solids obturate in a bore .002 -.003" larger than bullet as easily as lower BHN hardcast? or would greater pressures be needed to do so.
     
  8. 200Apples
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    200Apples Member

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    Eh, nevermind. Who wants to shoot a .002" undersize cast, anyway...
     
  9. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    Who cares? I didn’t make any statement about velocity tolerance. You’re having an imaginary argument with yourself here.
     
  10. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    You can argue how many angels fit on the head of a pin and whine about SAAMI specs, but copper solids have shot well for all of my rifles. Go shoot the bullets, if they don’t satisfy you, don’t shoot them. Too many folks make excuses because hardcast fans produce a bunch of irrelevant numbers and one or two rifles which don’t shoot well, then sell that snake oil as gospel.

    I don’t shoot Barnes bullets in straightwalls, so please don’t imagine my endorsement of such.
     
  11. brewer12345

    brewer12345 Member

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    I didn't say hard cast. I think a tin rich rich b of 10 to 12 bhn would be ideal for penetration, expansion and weight retention.
     
  12. 200Apples
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    200Apples Member

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    You are a disagreeable man, I'll give you that.

    I'm trying to have a discussion and you're casting aspersions. Calm down.

    You wrote "PLATED". Why was that so important for you to try to get across, albeit mistakenly?

    The Deep Curl is a jacketed bullet, but the jacket is made via a plating process. Since they are jacketed, they will withstand greater velocities than a plated bullet.

    The point is important since the OP wishes to shoot something like it from a rifle... with rifle velocities.
     
  13. Axis II

    Axis II Member

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    My head hurts! I think Ill just take the Louisville slugger out and be done with it. How would antlers hold up to a wood bat? :)
     
  14. Fyrstyk

    Fyrstyk Member

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    I shoot a T/c contender carbine with the 445 super mag.
     
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  15. mrawesome22-250

    mrawesome22-250 Member

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    Depends on how fast you can swing. Louisville Sluggers are only rated for 400fps.
     
  16. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    I stated the Deep Curl is a plated bullet, to which you apparently take personal offense so you jumped on my statement with BS about muzzle velocity.

    The Deep Curl is an electroplated bullet. No mistaking that fact - even if you seem to insist that any copper covering on a bullet constitutes a “jacket.” It’s in their marketing copy, and any of their representatives will confirm upon a simple phone call, the Gold Dot and Deep Curl bullets are electroplated bullets. They have a thick copper plating, and as I said in my posts above, it’s intentionally misleading for Speer to call it a “bonded jacket.”

    The difference in conventional jacket construction as opposed to electroplating is significant in more aspects than velocity tolerance. “Jacket” thickness inconsistency and diameter inconsistency, and relatively lackluster performance in the field is why I say the Deep Curls/GDH’s have never impressed me. It’s a cheap bullet, and it performs like one.

    I’ve been clear here as well, the XTP is far from a premium bullet, nor has it impressed me. But as a cheap cup and core, it does what cheap cup and core bullets are supposed to do - and killing whitetails is well within their wheelhouse. The DC’s will kill deer as well, but they aren’t my preferred bullet for the task.
     
  17. 200Apples
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    200Apples Member

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    BS? Are you a Democrat?

    Again, you are mistaken. It is not BS to consider velocity when shooting plated bullets. Remember, *you* were the one to bring up the subject of plating.
     
  18. brewer12345

    brewer12345 Member

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    You know we love to argue.

    Realistically, if you are shooting an accurate load and the bullet doesn't grenade, the 44 puts a big enough hole in Bambi that the details probably aren't critical.
     
  19. 25-20 WCF

    25-20 WCF Member

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    Actually, Hornady rates the 240 XTP to 2200 fps as stated in their 9th Edition. They list maximum load data in the .44 Magnum of 1800 fps.

    Actually, the Hornady 225 FXT and their 265 FP are designed for rifle velocities. Speer designed two bullets specifically for the .444 Marlin, the 240 DCSP and the 270 DCSP. I like cast bullets, but there is nothing wrong with the right jacketed bullet, as thousands of hunters prove every year.


    .
    .
     
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  20. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    Interesting - 9th and 10th both show MV range 900-2200 for the 240, with 850-1900 for the 300 XTP. Same info for the 300, but a change in the info for the 240 compared to the old “red ribbon chart” they used to publish which put the 240 at 900-1800fps:

    96855474-207B-4FF1-A4DB-BFE54217DA87.jpeg
     
  21. earlthegoat2

    earlthegoat2 Member

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    I’ll repeat that the 300 gr XTP factory loads were more accurate out of my .431” bore 1:38 twist micro-groove Marlin 1894. Of your going to shoot XTPs in 44 mag, try both the 300 and 240 to see which you like. The 300s grouped at 4” and 8” lower than the 6” grouping of the 240s.

    Slow twist doesn’t always mean it won’t shoot a 300.
     
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  22. mrawesome22-250

    mrawesome22-250 Member

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    None of those bullets have a diameter of .431" or larger. That right there tells you they were either designed for a 44mag pistol or 444marlin.

    If a company were going to design a true 44mag rifle bullet, the diameter would be at least .431" since that what the SAAMI spec is for 44mag rifle. In Hornady's case, since they usually add .001" to their bullets, it would be a .432" bullet.

    Accuracy should be the ultimate goal here. You aren't going to get that from a .430" bullet skidding down a .431" bore.
     
  23. gotboostvr

    gotboostvr Member

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    I've shot a couple good sized Ohio whitetail with 240gr XTPS over a near max charge (it's where my accuracy node was) out of a 16" R92.

    I've shot through BOTH front shoulders on a (conservative estimate) 125+ lbs doe. It snapped the far side shoulder blade in half and had a 1+" hole in it. I'm very content with XTPs on whitetail.
     
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  24. Axis II

    Axis II Member

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    What part of Ohio you in if you don't mind me asking? I am 30min from Cleveland. Thanks for the info. I will be grabbing another box of XTP tonight from Cabelas.
     
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  25. gotboostvr

    gotboostvr Member

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    I live in western Ohio, but hunt the pretty thick brush and many hills of southern Ohio mostly.
    [​IMG]
     
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