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44Spl and Accurate #5, Large Data Variance

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by J.R.W., Dec 30, 2012.

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  1. J.R.W.

    J.R.W. Member

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    I'm looking for some input on some pretty large discrepancies in data. If anyone can run these through QuickLoad, that'd be awesome too. My girlfriend bought me a Taurus 445L for Christmas and I've been working on some loads for it.

    Looking at my manuals as well as a recent thread on the 44Spl, I'm seeing a pretty big gap. One of the posters in the other thread did chrono his load using 9.0gr of AA#5 under a 240gr LSWC @ 803FPS.

    Accurate Arms: 6.1-6.8 (2000, 2002 Manuals/Current Website)
    Lee: 6.1-6.8 (Second Edition, probably transposed from AA)
    Speer: 8.4-9.3 (#13, #14 Manuals)
    Hornady: 8.9 (7th Edition, Via PM, unable to verify)

    As you can see there is quite a bit of a jump. I realize that there may be better suited powders for this cartridge, but I use it for most of my pistol loads so I'd like to keep it to that. I fired 50rds from 6.1-6.5 and they did feel rather wimpy compared to the Buffalo Bore and C.O.P loads shot on the same outing.

    I'm not looking to abuse the gun, if I wanted flat out velocity I'd have gone magnum. That said, I'm looking to see the true potential of the caliber.

    Thanks and Happy New Year
     
  2. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    Why not just use the old tried & true Skeeter Skelton load of 7.5 Unique / 240 LSWC.

    If it won't kill it, it didn't need shooting.

    Accurate powder has been made in 4 or 5 different countrys over the years.
    So the age of the data can make the difference.

    rc
     
  3. J.R.W.

    J.R.W. Member

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    RC, the country of origin bit makes sense. I'm trying to stick to what I have on hand. Given that my entire supply is less than a year old, I may have to just slowly work up to it. The Accurate load data dates back to 2000 as far as I can tell. The Hornady and Speer manuals are 2006/2007 respectively so maybe Accurate has not updated their info.
     
  4. rsrocket1

    rsrocket1 Member

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    The problem with 44 special is its incredibly low SAAMI max pressure spec of 15500 psi. Coupled with a 2" barrel, you will only get [STRIKE]480 fps[/STRIKE] with 8.7g AA5 and [STRIKE]380 fps[/STRIKE] with 6.8g. QL says 8.7g is the better load which generates 11,300 psi compared to the anemic 7,100 psi that 6.8g would produce. With pressures that low, you will probably have sooty cases, lots of unburned powder and a bullet going not much faster than an airsoft pellet (or a stuck bullet).

    The 7.5g Unique load is at the top of the SAAMI pressure spec, but probably easily handled by most modern guns and will get you a respectable 550 fps out of a 2" barrel.

    Hope that helps.

    edit: ignore the velocities, they are way off.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2012
  5. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    DISCLAIMER: I should have said the old Skeeter Skelton .44 Special load I posted above is over the current .44 Special pressure limits.
    However it has been the goto load for .44 Special shooters since I was a boy.
    It is perfectly safe in modern S&W & Colt SAA .44 Spl revolvers.

    Charter Arms Bulldogs?
    I don't know nothing about that there!


    rc
     
  6. J.R.W.

    J.R.W. Member

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    rsrocket,

    Those velocity numbers seem way off. See this link.

    http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=8538348&postcount=106

    This is where my question came from. 9gr netted 803FPS from the same gun.
     
  7. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    They are way off.

    rc
     
  8. joneb

    joneb Member

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    For my S&W 696 with a 3" barrel I load 8.5gr of #5 with WLP for a Nosler 200gr JHP and a bit more w/a F-150.
    I still have loads with Unique with 240 LSWC I used 6.8gr with WLP and 7.0gr with F-150s, it's hard to beat Unique for 44spl with 240gr lead but I have had good results with #5 for 200gr bullets.
    W-231 is another favorite with 180 and 200gr jacketed and cast.
    For me I prefer a 200gr bullet for the short barreled 44spl.
     
  9. J.R.W.

    J.R.W. Member

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    Thanks for the confirmation guys. I'll be working up some loads and maybe get out Tuesday. Thinking 8.1-9.0 and see what happens. With such a large difference, I wanted a second opinion or two. I very well may grab a pound of Unique if I can find some locally.
     
  10. Float Pilot

    Float Pilot Member

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    BiGwhiteyJ :

    Since we are shooting the same gun, probably at different temperatures, please post some of your actual results on my 44 Special thread as well. As you can see, sometimes QUICK LOAD DOES NOT WORK...

    I also found that my Taurus M-445 UL has one chamber in the cylinder that throws that bullet a little way away from the rest of the group. I marked my chambers with a Sharpe pen and it is pretty consistent.
    Be careful about the Buffalo Bore stuff in your M-445 UL. I think the ammo box is marked that they are not for use in lightweight small frame guns.

    It will be interesting to see if yours only likes cast lead like mine or maybe yours might like jacketed slugs...
     
  11. J.R.W.

    J.R.W. Member

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    Float,

    Will do. The Buffalo Bore is marked not to be used in Charter Bulldogs, but the Taurus is fine. It didn't shoot very well compared to the C.O.P. 200gr Solid Copper so its not really an issue for me. Hopefully after tax season I'll be grabbing a chronograph. I went digging in the basement and found a pound of Universal, W231, and Power Pistol so they may see some experimentation. If the local shops aren't cleared out, I'm going on a hunt for Unique too. I guess I may have to switch things up a bit, just means the 10lbs of AA #5 will be around longer.
     
  12. rsrocket1

    rsrocket1 Member

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    Agreed, looking at the velocities again, it looks bogus. It looks like Quickload does diverge from reality when using ultra short barrels. There was thread earlier this week where a fast powder looked equal to a slower powder when the barrels got down to 2" and it didn't seem to make sense either.
     
  13. Float Pilot

    Float Pilot Member

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    So far my Taurus M-445 UL seems to like the 240 grain SWCs the best and the following loads.... At least so far.... I have fired 500 rounds of experimental loads through it so far... Most were not worth writing about....

    I put the slightly smaller Houge grips on mine and it is the perfect jacket pocket gun...

    240 grain Keith Style SWC
    6.5 grains Unique
    WW-WLP
    1.475 col roll crimp
    Vel- Taurus = 790 fps and a 0.75 inch group at point of aim.
    Vel- S&WM29= 865 fps and a 0.50 inch group
    Good Load

    240 grain Keith SWC
    7.5 grains Power Pistol
    WW, WLP
    1.483 col Roll Crimp
    Taurus=820 fps and a 1.0 inch group
    S&W = 905 fps and a one hole group less than half an inch


    240 grain Keith style SWC
    9.0gr AA#5
    WW brass, WLP, Roll Crimp
    Vel= 803 fps and a 1.0 inch group 1 inch low


    240 grain cast lead Keith style, semi-wadcutter.
    Winchester Brass, Winchester Large Pistol, 1.490 col w/roll crimp
    6.2 Grains HP-38 = ….Hi-812, Lo-790, and a 1.35 inch group ¾ inch left, clean
     
  14. J.R.W.

    J.R.W. Member

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    For some clarification, I ordered a back issue of Handloader from Wolfe Publishing (Sept. 05?) featuring lots of 44Spl loads. Their 250 Kieth load lists a max of 9.3gr of AA#5. So, it seems as if 9.0 is far from unreasonable. When I have a minute I'll scan the tables from the article and post them here.
     
  15. joneb

    joneb Member

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    There are many guns chambered in 44spl some can digest very heavy loads, and others are made to shoot standard pressure 44spl. Some data maybe gun specific. Start low and work up.
    If you have a S&W 24,624 or a FA model 97 or a Ruger BH chambered in 44spl you can safely load beyond standard 44spl data.
     
  16. James2

    James2 Member

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    Unique and the 44 Spl go together very well.

    I am using a cast bullet at 255 gr and 6 gr Unique in my Taurus Titanium with 2 inch barrel. It has a good whack. I have no idea how fast it is going.
     
  17. 35 Whelen

    35 Whelen Member

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    6.5 grs. of Unique with a Lyman 429421 (250 gr. SWC) runs a hair over 800 fps out of my 4 3/4" Uberti, so your load in the short barreled would be running around 700 I'd guess.

    35W
     
  18. Float Pilot

    Float Pilot Member

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    James2 :: I'll bet you are only going 680 to 700 fps.



    FROM THE 44 SPECIAL THREAD I HAD GOING A WHILE AGO.
    USING A Taurus M-445UL with a 2.1 inch barrel and a Model 24 or 29 with a 6.5 inch barrel.


    240 grain Keith Style SWC
    6.5 grains Unique
    WW-WLP
    1.475 col roll crimp
    Vel- Taurus = 790 fps and a 0.75 inch group at point of aim.
    Vel- S&WM29= 865 fps and a 0.50 inch group
    Good Load

    255 grain Keith Style SWC (from straight wheel weights, sized to .429)
    6.5 grains Unique
    WW-WLP
    1.578 col, Roll Crimp (almost too long for 44 special)
    Vel- Taurus = 730 fps and a 0.75 inch group
    Vel- S&WM29 = 795 fps and a 0.50 inch group.
    * not a bad load at all.
     
  19. HighExpert

    HighExpert Member

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    .44 Special
    JHP 240gr
    6.0 Bullseye
    1.463 OAL

    I know its bullseye. Works good and shoots cheap.
     
  20. J.R.W.

    J.R.W. Member

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    Just checking back in. The chrono will be here Thursday. I've got loads worked up to try with AA#5, Unique, Universal Clays, Power Pistol, and W231 under the 'ol faithful 240gr SWC.
     
  21. Float Pilot

    Float Pilot Member

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    I was thinking about you the other day....l I have been trying to use a Charter Arms Bulldog speed-loader (HKS) but the Taurus is slightly larger so they are not lined up as well as I would like.. SO I ordered a couple of speed-loaders that were made specifically for the Taurus 5 shot 44 specials.

    Maxfire Revolver Speedloader 44 Special 5-Shot Taurus 445 Package of 2
    http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/19...der-44-special-5-shot-taurus-445-package-of-2

    They just came in the mail, so I have not played with them very much yet... Usually I just carry a couple speed strips in my coat pocket...
     
  22. J.R.W.

    J.R.W. Member

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    Float,

    Those do look nifty, I'll have to grab some when they come back in stock. What model chrono are you using? I picked up the Shooting Chrony F1 as a basic unit to get started. I'm curious to see what some of the loads will do. The aforementioned Handloader article lists 9.3gr of AA#5 as being a sub 15,500psi load. The Elmer Kieth 7.5gr Unique is the starting charge listed in the 22,000psi or less table. I also crept up to the 22k psi load of 8gr of Universal Clays which gave 1056fps from a 7.5" barrel. I'm thinking between the five powders I should be able to find something it likes. I've got some factory ammo coming, 200gr Winchester Silvertips. The 445UL is really growing on me especially due to the fact I don't have to chase the brass in the snow.

    P.S. What molds are you using? I grabbed a Lee Tumble Lube 240gr SWC. Any experience?

    Edit to add: The 22k PSI loads are safe for the CA Bull Dog for sparing use recommending 15-18k PSI for normal shooting to prevent excessive wear. If the hot loads wear mine out, I'll be trying out the Taurus lifetime repair policy.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2013
  23. Float Pilot

    Float Pilot Member

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    Lyman Bullet Mold #429421,,, it is supposedly 245 grain but mine are a little hard and come out around 242 grains.

    My buddy has a mold that makes a bullet that looks the same but is a 250 grain swc. It is an RCBS BULLET MOULD .44-250-K 421

    Mine are size lubed.
     
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