.45-70 Leading issue: So maybe A2400?

[WrongHanded]

A confusing title to be sure.

I have tried loading some SNS Casting 405gr .458" diameter coated lead bullets (BHN 17 approximately), using H322. But I've experienced significant leading in the last 5" or so of the barrel. My assumption is that either the bullet is going too fast at the point in the barrel, or they are too small of a diameter (I haven't slugged the barrel; I have yet to do that on any firearm).

So I thought I'd try running the remaining 400+ bullets I have slower, and see what happens. Plus a "plinking" load would be nice. Of the other powders I have on hand, A2400 is the next slowest. But I have yet to find any .45-70 data using it. Does anyone have a starting suggestion? Or a link to any load data?

As far as the H322 goes, I'm going to try some gas checked bullets with a .459" diameter. And see how those work for me.

(Edited to emphasize "coated".)

 

[MEHavey]

If you're having leading problems, you likely want a faster powder to bump up the diameter/seat the bore quickly with that hardness -- especially w/ that beveled base.

If a Marlin/1886, try try 13-16 gr Unique and let us know

 

[Slamfire]

Grease the heck out of your bullets. I ran a grease test for several reasons. The first was to see if greased bullets "dangerously" increased pressures, as General Hatcher claimed. Not by the velocities over my chronograph. And, to see if I could reduce the leading from my commercial cast bullets. And that was successful.

This is lubriplate AA130 but any grease, crisco will work. I have also used vaseline, hair gell. I prefer the stuff that will wash off easily and I prefer greases that allow me to munch on food with greasy hands. Axle grease works, but the stuff is not edible.



On left, first round through my 1886 vintage rebuild M1873 Trapdoor. This rifle leaded something awful with commercial cast bullets. You can see the amount of grease that is pushed around the cartridge and out the back in the right hand picture. I am going to state, based on the pictures here, and then next set of pictures,



That the cartridges were completely floating in grease when they were fired, and that they completely transmitted as much bolt thrust as possible, and no over pressure conditions occurred, and extraction was perfectly normal. Handling greasy cartridges is a mess, but it worked.

Ungreased on left, greased on right



I had to move my chronograph out, as the grease plume coming out of the barrel messed up the velocity readings. But, leading stopped. It worked great, leading stopped all the way down the tube.

So, grease the heck out of your cast bullets, lube, lube, lube.

 

[WrongHanded]

If you're having leading problems, you likely want a faster powder to bump up the diameter/seat the bore quickly with that hardness -- especially w/ that beveled base.

If a Marlin/1886, try try 13-16 gr Unique and let us know

I don't have an Unique, but I suppose if it comes to that, I could get some. I've been reading in some places that 23-24gr of 2400 works nicely. But I'd like to confirm with some actual data, or at least from a somewhat known source.

The rifle is a Henry H010, btw.

@Slamfire , greasing like that is an interesting concept, and new to me. But it's too messy of a solution for my liking.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

If you are getting leading in the last 5" if the barrel near the muzzle you are running out of lube .

I now use nothing but AA5744 in the 45-70 and before that I used 4198. I have also used IMR 3031, 4895, 2400 Unique and a few others too.

 

[Wis-Harpo]

I switched to IMR 3031 from IMR 4198 and accuracy greatly improved, but I am shooting the Hornady 350 gr round nose bullet . My Mauser 45-70 did not like the 300 HP or the 405 grain bullets. I always wanted to try the MBC Hy Tec coated bullets, but I only shoot my rifle 2-3 times a year. Also I have enough 350 grainers to last me. But you make me want to give them a try.

 

[WrongHanded]

If you are getting leading in the last 5" if the barrel near the muzzle you are running out of lube .

If that's the case, I must be losing the "Hi-Tek" coating on the bullet as it's traveling the bore. Not good.

 

[Wis-Harpo]

I should have typed Hi-Tek coated bullets NOT Hy Tec. Poor memory.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

If that's the case, I must be losing the "Hi-Tek" coating on the bullet as it's traveling the bore. Not good.

I have not heard of that happening but if you are getting leading it must be happening.

 

[WrongHanded]

I have not heard of that happening but if you are getting leading it must be happening.

The only other possibility I can think of is that I got some leading from the factory cowboy loads I ran through the gun before I began to reload. And that leading was enough to cause the coated lead bullets to lead more. But I don't recall seeing any leading before I started running the reloads.

The bore was pretty heavily coated in that last 5 inches. And the streaking gave the impression the bullet was not spinning with the rifling as it was fairly straight. Which I suppose could be the result of a bullet barely large enough in diameter, and it going too fast for the BHN.

 

[Charlie98]

it sounds like everyone else ticked off the biggest points... running out of lube, and/or overdriving the bullets. There is also the possibility that there is an issue with bullet size, but on a new manufacture rifle I find that unlikely. You didn't mention the charge of H322 you were loading... it's easy to get carried away with velocity and then have problems with leading.

Alliant 2400 wouldn't be a bad powder, nor Unique (which I may try next, myself.) There is data for it, just Google search it and you'll find it, same with Unique. Beyond that, I would have to recommend IMR4198, which is what I'm using now, and AA5744, which I have but not fully load tested yet, and is supposedly THE powder for cast .45-70 loads. Keep your velocity below 1600fps... if you still have leading, then the next step would be a .001" bigger bullet.

 

[WrongHanded]

it sounds like everyone else ticked off the biggest points... running out of lube, and/or overdriving the bullets. There is also the possibility that there is an issue with bullet size, but on a new manufacture rifle I find that unlikely. You didn't mention the charge of H322 you were loading... it's easy to get carried away with velocity and then have problems with leading.

Alliant 2400 wouldn't be a bad powder, nor Unique (which I may try next, myself.) There is data for it, just Google search it and you'll find it, same with Unique. Beyond that, I would have to recommend IMR4198, which is what I'm using now, and AA5744, which I have but not fully load tested yet, and is supposedly THE powder for cast .45-70 loads. Keep your velocity below 1600fps... if you still have leading, then the next step would be a .001" bigger bullet.

The charge of H322 started at 43.5gr (per Lyman 50th), and then I bumped straight to 45.0gr (which was only about a 3.5% increase), looking towards a middling load. 48.5gr is Max in that chart. It may just have been more than the bullet could handle.

I did actually remember I have a 3rd reloading manual (.45-70 specific) and found some A2400 data. At this point I'm reluctant to try these particular bullets with the H322 again, so I need to find another powder to use them up. If I have to buy something else I will do so.

 

[Jessesky]

If you don’t mind a red bullet, coated bullets from midsouth shooters supply work great for me.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I'm reluctant to try these particular bullets with the H322 again, so I need to find another powder to use them up. If I have to buy something else I will do so.

Actually, you are the first person to mention H322 in the 45-70 with cast bullets. I'm sure it's been done but I have not heard of it. In the .222 Rem or .223 Rem sure, just not the 45-70. It's possible it's building more heat than the powders associated with the 45-70. Like I said above I now use AA5744 and before that 4198. 3031 is a good choice too but I usually use it with jacketed bullets, not cast bullets. (just my choices)

 

[Lafitte]

Use 13 grains of Trailboss with the 405 grain lead bullets, plinking will be a walk in the park. I have used it out to about 125 yards in plinking, try it, you'll like it! (I haven't tried it from a bench, you might like it there.)
Lafitte

 

[Salmoneye]

I'm betting the lead was from the previous use of 'Cowboy Loads'...

Clean the heck out of the barrel, and then retry the same load that you were shooting when you noticed the leading...

 

[MEHavey]

If that's the case, I must be losing the "Hi-Tek" coating on the bullet as it's traveling the bore. Not good.

I have not heard of that happening but if you are getting leading it must be happening.

Highly unlikley that a coated bullet is "running out of lube."
Far more likely is that the bullet is too small/too hard for the load/pressure and it's (1) never sealing*, and (2) skidding, and (3) finally cutting through the coating

Clean the bore, and get the pressure up -- and get it up quickly.


* especially w/ that beveled base.


.

 

[Walkalong]

If you are getting leading in the last 5" if the barrel near the muzzle you are running out of lube .

With a lubed bullet this is certainly true, not sure about coated. I guess the coating could be rubbing off, or burning off from gas leakage, which sounds more likely, which lends me to believe MEHavey is onto something.

Kind of weird though.

I bought some coated 405 Gr bullets to try in .458 Win Mag, but haven't done it yet.

 

[Walkalong]

Actually, you are the first person to mention H322 in the 45-70 with cast bullets.

I am shooting H322 in .458 Win Mag with jacketed, and was going to use it when I tried the coated bullets.

 

[Charlie98]

I used to use H322 in the .30-30, and if memory serves, I've used it in the .45-70 with jacketed 350's before, too. I've since dropped H322 from the roster... IMR3031 does everything I need in that burn range.

 

[WrongHanded]

Well perhaps the easiest thing to might be to try the H322 again, so I know for certain it had nothing to do with the cowboy loads. Go back to the starting load, shoot a few and see what I get. The barrel is now thoroughly clean.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

With a lubed bullet this is certainly true, not sure about coated. I guess the coating could be rubbing off, or burning off from gas leakage, which sounds more likely, which lends me to believe MEHavey is onto something.

Kind of weird though.

I bought some coated 405 Gr bullets to try in .458 Win Mag, but haven't done it yet.

Yeah, when I made that post I didn't realize the bullets were coated, I missed that in the OP.

 

[Walkalong]

Yeah, when I made that post I didn't realize the bullets were coated, I missed that in the OP.

I do that all the time, my reading skills are quite suspect at times. I am fairly sure if it had been invented way back then, I would have been diagnosed ADDHD.

 

[RecoilRob]

Without changing any other variable...if you get leading in the last few inches of the now clean barrel I'd try adding lube to the existing load and giving it a try. If they shoot accurately and don't lead the last few inches of barrel....you kind of have part of your answer. Now.....if that indeed happens, to continue on and figure out WHY the lube was failing would take more work which would be academically interesting but if you have a serviceable load...unless you are driven by the curiosity...what's the point?

 

[Keyfer 55]

Have you slugged the bore of your rifle? Some rifles bores are small.457 to .459
I've Got a a NEF. that slugged .458 My mold
Drops a .459 I don't size my bullets because
I don't need to, I try to stay around 1200 fps.
Lyman 49th reloading handbook look in
T/C pistol 16 inch barrel it has, 400 gr SPEER jsp. Alliant 2400.