45-70 load and odd recoil.

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Axis II

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Loaded 52.6gr of IMR 4198 and 300gr HP today and found a few to kick a lot harder than the previous one. Everything was weighed and trickled so what’s the deal? A few of those rounds felt like 70gr were behind it they hit me so hard and started flattening primers. All 3 rounds that kicked harder also shot 3-5” higher. I chalk some of that up to the recoil.

Also what’s your go to speed or load for 300gr bullets? 52.6 of IMR 4198 is my most accurate with putting 3 in the same hole but recoil is a little rough. Shooting off hand that may cause some issues.
 
I only load 45-70 with black powder, but load 444 with H4198 and it is definitely a much sharper kick with smokeless. 52.6 grs IMR4198 is below the starting charge listed by Hodgdon with a 300grs Sierra JHP, starting lever load is 53.7 grs. Is it possible that light loads are creating significant differentials in peak pressures?
 
My guess is you weren't holding the gun tight into your shoulder on a couple.

52.6gr with a 300gr should be brutal on the shooter. I run 44gr with a 300gr Hornady and they are not fun from the bench.
 
I used 51.0 grains of IMR4198 behind the Hornady 300 HP for years, shot Kodiak Island blacktails out to over 200 yards. I never noticed what the OP describes, it was a very consistent load for me. Never thought it had excessive recoil either, but it was in my M98 Mauser. Flattened primers on the heavily recoiling rounds, doesn’t sound like holding the rifle differently is the answer. Obviously something was different, but I don’t have the magic bullet for the OP.



.
 
What gun are you shooting these loads out of? I am thinking that the bullet seating depth was different, thus causing higher pressure and more recoil. If shooing out of a lever action, be sure you crimp well to prevent the bullets from being pushed deeper into the case.
 
Something doesn't add up

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52.6gr with a 300gr should be brutal on the shooter. I run 44gr with a 300gr Hornady and they are not fun from the bench.

My manuals show 53.7 as a starting load and 57.2 as max with lever action rifles. Trapdoors are lower. Knowing the rifle would help. But at any rate this sounds like a few were loaded with more than 52.6 gr of powder for whatever reason.
 
What gun are you shooting these loads out of? I am thinking that the bullet seating depth was different, thus causing higher pressure and more recoil. If shooing out of a lever action, be sure you crimp well to prevent the bullets from being pushed deeper into the case.

This sounds entirely plausible to me. I've had bullet set back in .357 lever action with some double tap loads, so I know it can happen.
 
What gun are you shooting these loads out of? I am thinking that the bullet seating depth was different, thus causing higher pressure and more recoil. If shooing out of a lever action, be sure you crimp well to prevent the bullets from being pushed deeper into the case.
Marlin 1895 single fed today.
 
Shouldn’t be cause each was fed single and non in the tube. Only thing I have thought about today is scale has an issue.

The set back issue I had seemed to come from chambering a round off the feed ramp. But it may not be that at all. Have any pics of the crimp you were applying?

So regarding the scale problem: how were you dropping the powder? With a powder measure and then trickling up? Or just scoops of powder and trickling?
 
Something doesn't add up
Hodgdons lever gun data goes to 40,000CUP where most others top out at 28k. Their starting loads are well above most max loads. A 300gr bullet at 2300fps in a light lever gun will make you beg for mercy in short order.

Like I said, 44gr of IMR4198 and a 300gr bullet doing 1900fps is not for the timid. Add 400fps to that and it gets downright painful. If you are not making a conceous effort to keep that butt pulled in tight to your shoulder with a good cheek weld, it will beat the snot out of you. Especially at the bench.

4 to 5 inch fliers are a probably a product of flinch after a few of those monsters.
 
I learned, in only one lesson, that my 450Bushmaster AR is not a bench gun...;)

And I am told that they are anemic and a true 45-70 load is better(worse?). Oh, well. At least I know my limit! :)

Now to your scale...

How do you get powder to the case?
I have a regular Hornady Powder Measure. Once it is set and dropping well, the interior volume is not going to change to get drastically different recoil from a fifty grain charge. So if my scale was bad I woud have to trickle in the twenty grain difference. I would notice.

If you use a scoop to get close first it may be hard to notice your scale being out of whack.

Did you just throw twenty grains difference out there, or did it actually feel like that amount?
What weight difference in the initial ladder would leave primers like that?
If you were charged and seated the bullet deeper would that be enough to cause an overload, or rather, uncomfortable recoil?

If they seemed wicked, you may want to pull them...
In an AR it blows out the mag and bends the receiver. On a lever gun, your face is touching the receiver...
 
The set back issue I had seemed to come from chambering a round off the feed ramp. But it may not be that at all. Have any pics of the crimp you were applying?

So regarding the scale problem: how were you dropping the powder? With a powder measure and then trickling up? Or just scoops of powder and trickling?
I drop from a Lee measure into the case and then dump that on the scale pan and trickle up to the charge I want. I can take some pictures tonight and send them around dinner time.
 
I learned, in only one lesson, that my 450Bushmaster AR is not a bench gun...;)

And I am told that they are anemic and a true 45-70 load is better(worse?). Oh, well. At least I know my limit! :)

Now to your scale...

How do you get powder to the case?
I have a regular Hornady Powder Measure. Once it is set and dropping well, the interior volume is not going to change to get drastically different recoil from a fifty grain charge. So if my scale was bad I woud have to trickle in the twenty grain difference. I would notice.

If you use a scoop to get close first it may be hard to notice your scale being out of whack.

Did you just throw twenty grains difference out there, or did it actually feel like that amount?
What weight difference in the initial ladder would leave primers like that?
If you were charged and seated the bullet deeper would that be enough to cause an overload, or rather, uncomfortable recoil?

If they seemed wicked, you may want to pull them...
In an AR it blows out the mag and bends the receiver. On a lever gun, your face is touching the receiver...
I just threw that out as an example of how much recoil difference there was.

Upon inspecting some rounds last night I noticed a few of them (5-7) were seated deeper than the others with only a hair of the cannelure showing. My hunt clubs been closed for the last 2 weeks on weekends and I was up until 11pm loading 2 calibers from start to finish on Friday. I may have missed some cases that needed trimmed. I had some Winchester cases bulge pretty good when crimping and put those to the side to be pulled and redone. I would say 15-20% recoil increase. Usually I can take 25-30rds off my Caldwell front rest until I begin to flinch but after 10 rounds yesterday I broke out the lead sled. The rounds in question actually made the rifle jump off the bag. Opening day for rifle season is tomorrow and I grabbed 10 rounds from the other side of the box and stacked them in 3 shot groups at 100yards. I will take 3-5 of those tomorrow and then pull everything and start over Monday evening.
 
If you are dropping the propellant into the case then dumping it on to the scale pan are you SURE that all of it is dumping out each time?? Some might be staying inside the brass this time you are loading and not when you loaded previously. Had it happen to me years ago. Now I put the scale pan up against the bottom of the measure discharge tube before I operate the handle and then lower it slowly after so I do not spill anything. This works well and there is no danger of any error as you can easily see if any propellant is left on the scale pan each time. YMMV
 
After reading through this thread, I’m going to make the suggestion that it’s a combination of a stout load and that Marlin. I had a 1895 LTD V, and with starting lever-gun charges of IMR 3031, 4895, and 4064 with a cast 350grn bullet, they were knocking me into last week. So much so that I wound up pulling over 100 bullets... I couldn’t take it. Unless there is something significantly wrong with your reloading technique... and I’m not seeing it, based on your narrative... I would rethink your load, unless you just need all that power.
 
If you are dropping the propellant into the case then dumping it on to the scale pan are you SURE that all of it is dumping out each time?? Some might be staying inside the brass this time you are loading and not when you loaded previously. Had it happen to me years ago. Now I put the scale pan up against the bottom of the measure discharge tube before I operate the handle and then lower it slowly after so I do not spill anything. This works well and there is no danger of any error as you can easily see if any propellant is left on the scale pan each time. YMMV
I use an old Hornady LE 45-70 case. I dont like dropping in the pan cause it makes a mess sometimes. You know I never thought about powder staying in the cases.
 
After reading through this thread, I’m going to make the suggestion that it’s a combination of a stout load and that Marlin. I had a 1895 LTD V, and with starting lever-gun charges of IMR 3031, 4895, and 4064 with a cast 350grn bullet, they were knocking me into last week. So much so that I wound up pulling over 100 bullets... I couldn’t take it. Unless there is something significantly wrong with your reloading technique... and I’m not seeing it, based on your narrative... I would rethink your load, unless you just need all that power.
Based on previous notes 40, 44, 44.6, 49, 50 gr all shot decent for me but 52.6 sends them down range like a target rifle. I had guys shocked I sent 3 into the same hole from a lead sled yesterday. The other charges shoot 1.5'' with 2'' being the worst with 3 shot groups. I know everyone doesn't like 3 shot groups but I am poor and cant afford to shoot multiple 5 shot groups of 45-70. I also went up in charge cause I shot a large 150lbs doe at 50yards 2 yrs ago with a charge of I believe 38-40gr and she ran 100yards. Both lungs were clipped, so figured go up in speed for more expansion.
 
Long cases are not a good thing, at times.
If they are too long, the crimp will open into the lead and that makes the whole thing unhappy...

The ones that felt tight while crimping may be shortened enough to chamber but still too long over all.
 
Based on previous notes 40, 44, 44.6, 49, 50 gr all shot decent for me but 52.6 sends them down range like a target rifle. I had guys shocked I sent 3 into the same hole from a lead sled yesterday. The other charges shoot 1.5'' with 2'' being the worst with 3 shot groups. I know everyone doesn't like 3 shot groups but I am poor and cant afford to shoot multiple 5 shot groups of 45-70. I also went up in charge cause I shot a large 150lbs doe at 50yards 2 yrs ago with a charge of I believe 38-40gr and she ran 100yards. Both lungs were clipped, so figured go up in speed for more expansion.

following that logic, if those cartridges were seriously overcharged, the accuracy would be gone. I’ve loaded those 300grn JHP’s when I had my Browning 1886.... it’s a pretty robust bullet and I’m not surprised it may not have expanded well at medium velocity.
 
following that logic, if those cartridges were seriously overcharged, the accuracy would be gone. I’ve loaded those 300grn JHP’s when I had my Browning 1886.... it’s a pretty robust bullet and I’m not surprised it may not have expanded well at medium velocity.
The ones that recoiled roughly wouldn't even hit the 10'' shoot N see target.

Here is how the day started. Removed scope from rail, but left rings on to outfit a cheek riser sleeve. I didn't think the scope would be off by much, so fired at 100yards with cardboard and 10'' shoot n see. First shot was from a set of 4 rounds from last years season and felt pretty good. It actually hit 13'' to the left on a buddies target and grouped. I adjusted and once I grabbed one from the batch loaded Friday it rocked me pretty good. I stand 6ft6 300lbs and can take a beating from the bench, but that round from Fridays batch definitely hit me harder. I grabbed #2 in line and it felt normal and shot just below the target. I figured maybe tuck it into the shoulder a little more and then it felt better and then a few more wild ones again. Looking through the spotting scope the ones that recoiled harder were high above the shoot n see and holding about a 4'' group. I adjusted cross hairs up to touch the holes above the target and fired and just nicked the bottom of the shoot n see. Recoil on that round felt good. I checked my Burris rings for tightness and all was tight. I fired and hit 1' from the low shot with mild recoil. I fired again and they started climbing and to the right now with wild recoil. I fired about 5 more and all climbed and right. I said I am going to 50yards and grabbed a random round and it hit 1'' 2 o'clock from the bull. I fired another random round and it touched. I then went to 100yards and fired and it hit almost same POI as the 50yard group. I adjusted to the holes and drilled the bull. I fired another one and completely missed the shoot n see high and right and that round walloped me. I fired again and miss and got kicked pretty good. I fired again and slammed the bull again. I tried another round and hit just a hair off the bull and I said I was done. All rounds from 50yards and back to 100yards were done on a led sled.
 
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