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45-70

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by fallout mike, Jul 11, 2012.

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  1. fallout mike

    fallout mike Member

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    My uncle wanted to handload some 45-70 rounds for deer hunting. I told him to come over and we would load them. Just bring whatever bullets, powder, and primers he wanted to use. I already load the round for my dad so I already have the dies. He came over and I show him the ropes while loading. He brought H4198 and barnes 300gr softpoints. We loaded a small batch with 55gr and 57gr for him to try out before loading them all. Both are absolutely stomping him. This is a 6'5" , 260# man that shoots all the time. His shoulder is bruised after just a few shots. However, with the 55gr loads he shot a one hole 3 shot group at 100 yards. Is this recoil issue just the powder used? He had been shooting this gun for years and never had this much recoil out of it. OAL is 2.550". After checking headspace we loaded another small batch at 2.620". He hasn't shot those yet. The amount of recoil is puzzling me though. Any ideas?
     
  2. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    What gun, and what has he been shooting in it??

    Your loads are stronger then factory 45-70 loads.
    About 500-600 FPS stronger.

    They fall into the upper end lever-action pressure, and into Ruger #1 single-shot pressure levels.
    In fact the 57.0 grain load is over MAX with IMR-4198 in the Lyman #49 manual.

    If you want factory load recoil, you need to look at the trap-door Springfield data section of the manuals.

    Not the strong lever-action and Ruger #1 sections.

    rc
     
  3. 45shooter

    45shooter Member

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    What are you planning to hunt?
    I load 375 grain WFN cast bullets with 15 grains of Unique and get 1,350 fps.
    It has good accuracy and has mild recoil... even my wife shoots it.
    That load has stomped couple of deers and hogs out to 90 yards with one shot.
    I have not had the opportunity to shoot a game beyond that yet.
     
  4. fallout mike

    fallout mike Member

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    Its a handi rifle. He's been shooting leverevolution. He uses it for deer. He wants to stay with the load bc of its accuracy. I was just wondering why the recoil was so heavy.
     
  5. Ridgerunner665

    Ridgerunner665 Member

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    When you load the 45-70 to those levels...it kills on both ends.

    I love the ole 45-70, but it gets hard on the shoulder with "modern" loads...

    I know how to make his load feel like a pussycat....load him up a couple with a 405 grain bullet over 50 grains of H322 (1,900 fps from a 22" Marlin), my load...very accurate, kicks like the devil!

    Those 300 grain loads won't feel so bad then...
     
  6. flashhole

    flashhole Member

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    I suspect poor shooting technique. Is he nesting the gun butt firmly in the shoulder area? Even a small amount of free travel will cause a problem. That load is not near as stout as some of the stuff I shoot and recoil is highly tolerable as long as I use good technique. I have a 500 grain bullet load I shoot in my Guide Gun that will tell you which teeth in your mouth have fillings.
     
  7. fallout mike

    fallout mike Member

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    His shooting technique is not the problem. He's the best shooter I've ever been around with the exception of a couple friends that are marine snipers.
     
  8. jack44

    jack44 Member

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    Tell him to try 13 grain of unique real soft .
     
  9. jbkebert

    jbkebert Member

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    Going off Hodgdon date for your loads. You are well within there recommended levels for a lever gun.

    Low end
    H4198 55grains, COAL 2.540, 2221 FPS, at 27,600 cup

    High end is

    H4198, 60 grains, COAL 2.540, 2424 FPS, at 40,000 cup this is max level for a marlin levergun.

    Your buddy has been shooting Hornady Leverevolution I assume 325 grain FTX bullets. Hornady list this factoy load at 2050 FPS.

    So something else might be up. You have only gained by data 200-300 FPS and lost a little bullet weight. Are you sure its H4198

    I mean my 95 pound 11year old son shoots the Hornady Leverevolution shells and whimpers when I run out of them. My 12 year old shot a couple 405 grain bear loads over the weekend with no problems.
     
  10. Arkansas Paul

    Arkansas Paul Member

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    Yeah, if you're talking about Jay, then technique is definitely not the issue.

    If he's shooting MOA groups, I wouldn't mess with seating depth. I don't think that's gonna have much effect on recoil anyway, but I may be wrong on that.

    Try about 45 grains of H4895 and see how that works. You can reduce H4895 loads to 60% of max and be okay. It burns great with reduced charges. Max load is 62 grains and that's compressed. Sixty percent of that would be 37.2 grains. I wouldn't go that low, but you get the idea.

    .45-70 isn't listed, but it gives the formula for reducing any round that H4895 is listed for.

    http://hodgdon.com/PDF/H4895 Reduced Rifle Loads.pdf
     
  11. fallout mike

    fallout mike Member

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    Paul, yea its jay. He wants to stick with it bc its so accurate but I was just curious about the heavy recoil. As jbkebert pointed out , this 55gr load is the minimum load data from hodgdon, and it's only 300gr bullets. The reason he got this powder was bc of the high velocity. I kind of thought it was the powder causing the recoil?
     
  12. ArchAngelCD

    ArchAngelCD Member

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    Just because your firing a levergun doesn't mean you have to load those 45-70 rounds to top end levergun pressures.

    I like H4198 but I use the Trapdoor loads instead. Using a 300gr Sierra bullet Hodgdon lists data of between 45.0gr and 55.0gr H4198. Start with the 45.0gr load and see if that load will perform as he wants it to and I'm sure it won't beat him up like the others did.

    I load a 405gr flat nose hard cast bullet for all my 45-70 needs with a charge of between 30.0 and 31.0gr H4198. It's a very accurate load and it's easy on the shoulder. It will also shoot clean through any animal it hits anywhere in North America.
     
  13. Ridgerunner665

    Ridgerunner665 Member

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    H4198 is at the fast end of the burn rate suitable for the 45-70...which equates to less powder in the round and less recoil.

    H322 hits the sweet spot though...case full of powder (lightly compressed), recoil energy up darn near 50 ft. lbs....it'll rattle your teeth, but man is it accurate. Busted my lip good one time...touched one off while shooting prone with a backpack for a front rest, didn't really have the rifle where it should be...split my upper lip wide open, LOL...hit what I was aiming at though which was a paper plate 300 yards away.

    Painful as it is....I still love shooting the 45-70!

    Off topic but sorta funny...
    Busted lips...that reminds me of the time a crossbow busted my lip, LMAO...who'd a thought a crossbow had that much recoil....deer came from the wrong side, had to shoot left handed and sorta bent forward (long story)...the butt hit me in the mouth, busted my lip and made me swallow my skoal, LMAO...killed the deer though. That was the first time I had ever hunted with a crossbow...
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2012
  14. mcofboise

    mcofboise Member

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    My 1895SS Marlin was the first gun I ever had recoil issues with; not normally recoil-conscious, but trying to shoot groups over sandbags with this gun was not in the cards. Until I put a Limbsaver recoil pad on it to ease the pressure on my tender clavicle. I shoot the Hornady FTX (the Leverevolution bullet) with 45.8 grains of IMR4198 which puts it in the factory loading realm: a really accurate deerslayer.

    mike
     
  15. jack44

    jack44 Member

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    That the BEAUTY of the 45/70 it dosent have to go FAST to go all the way though a animal slow or KILL IT clean ,I use lead bullets in my 1895GBL beartooth or laser cast.
     
  16. blarby

    blarby Member

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    Cant argue with the results on the end that matters though, eh ?

    When hunting, you only really need one or two.... Sounds like he doesn't need a lot of target practice- which is good !
     
  17. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    I'd suggest switching over to larger cast bullets and cast bullet loads. They kill deer real dead but don't need much velocity to do it. Velocity is usually pretty sedate and I always find recoil with moderate cast loads to be easy on the shoulder.
     
  18. flashhole

    flashhole Member

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    What kind of gun?
     
  19. ReloaderEd

    ReloaderEd Member

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    45-70 Recoil

    I have three rifles one Trapdoor carbine, a 1895 Marlin and a Ruger #3. My favoirite load is: 38 grs. of IMR 3031 behind a dracon filler and a cast RCBS 300 gr flat nots pure lead bullet and alox 235 lube sized .458 diameter. It shoots accurately and will kill deer and elk out to 300 yes in the Springfield.
    Full power loads in the Ruger and Marlin kick like a mule with heavier jacketed bullets and I prefer the Springfield. Your load with is way too hot and should be scalled back to a comfortable recoil.
     
  20. Craigman

    Craigman Member

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    Handi-Rifles seem to kick more than other setups. They are light and the design wasnt meant to tame heavy loads. It's an "all caliber" gun.

    Also, I have found the faster powders provide more of a sharp kick than a "push"
    I have one in 500sw and its almost unbearable with Lil'Gun powder.

    In my 1895 the 4198 loads are more snappy than others but provide the most velocity.

    He probably wont notice the recoil when the deer is falling over.:D
     
  21. fallout mike

    fallout mike Member

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    We are sticking with this load. Its very accurate and has great velocity. I was just curious about the amount of recoil. I may some of the advice here for my dad's loads though. He wants mild recoil.
     
  22. flashhole

    flashhole Member

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    Get a recoil pad.
     
  23. jbkebert

    jbkebert Member

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    Most H&R guns are not known for the silky soft recoil. As stated above they are light weight. That energy gets transfered somewhere in this case its into you buddies shoulder.

    That is the biggest downfall to those little h&r and rossi starter guns. The .22lr is fine the .243 is a little stiff for a .243 and the 20ga kicks like a horse. I had a handi rifle in .30/06 and quickly sold it. I am not all that recoil sensative but it was just plain stupid how much that gun kicked.
     
  24. 56hawk

    56hawk Member

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    Do you have access to a chronograph? I'm guessing your reloads are doing a good 300 fps faster than the LEVERevolution ammo. That would be around a 50% increase in recoil. By the way, you say his shooting technique isn't a problem, but how much experience does he have with heavy recoiling rifles? I have to shoot a lot of rounds out of my 458 Lott to get bruised. Even the 460 Weatherby isn't that bad.
     
  25. snakeman

    snakeman Member

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    If its just deer or black bear I'd load it between trapdoor loads and lever action loads.
     
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