45 acp 230 gr FMJ for defense, why not?

[kitsapcharly]

Personally, I use FMJ in both 380 and 45 which are the calibers I carry. In 380 my new Double Tap ammo gives 200 pounds at the muzzle from a little Kel-Tec barrel. You can get it in FMJ or HP but more penetration from the FMJ.
My new Double Tap 45 is the round nose FMJ rather than the flatter version because round nose feeds most reliably. It will give 520 pounds at the muzzle in a 5" barrel...probably around 490 from the 4" barrel of my XD. The FMJ penetrates better on 4-legged creatures in the woods, car doors, etc. and since most shots fired in SD situations by people who are far better trained than me are complete misses the idea of over-penetration is not a real issue.
FWIW

 

[Ben86]

kista, yes people do often miss but how does that make overpenetration a non-issue?

 

[1911Tuner]

kista, yes people do often miss but how does that make overpenetration a non-issue?

Not a non-issue as much as over emphasized...or mayber over dramatized.

In placing so much concern on overpenetration, it's usually in the sense of shooting through a human torso, with the bullet retaining enough energy to inflict a lethal or crippling wound on an uninvolved person or persons. It's a genuine concern, but it also assumes that the shooter will not miss his intended target. Factual evidence has shown that misses are commonplace...and in that...when your bullet skips down the street and hits a little old lady in the parking lot of the Piggly Wiggly, it won't much matter whether it was hardball or a hollowpoint.

Then, there's also the question of the hollow cavity becoming plugged with clothing or drywall and failing to expand. Since the 230/.45 hollowpoint is generally loaded to +P pressures and velocities...if it does fail to expand in a human torso, it will penetrate through and through...and retain even more energy on the other side.

Too many "ifs" and "what ifs" in a given scenario to make a call on whether a certain bullet design is good or no good.

Concentrate on marksmanship and keeping a cool head. Hit your target well. It you shoot well, hardball will do. If you don't...the latest/greatest lightning bolt hollowpoint won't make much difference.

 

[TestPilot]

2.) As far as the mythical stopping power goes, consider the difference in the outcome of a perp hit in the cranial cavity or spine or pelvic bone or heart or major blood vessel with a FMJ compared to a hollowpoint - there is none. Autopsy has shown time and again that the type of bullet used cannot be determined until it is found. Use hollowpoint .45 ammo (actually all hollowpoint handgun ammo) with the same confidence you would a FMJ... Remember expansion should only be considered a bonus, not an expectation.

The "autopsy could not tell the difference" I've read about was between different calibers, not the difference between FMJ and JHP.

I can certainly understand the examiner not being able to tell the differnce between a 9mm FMJ and 45ACP FMJ wound, or even between 9mm JHP wound and 45ACP JHP wound, due to the elastic nature of tissue.

But, if the coroner or whatever doctor looks at a 9mm FMJ wound and 9mm JHP wound with the JHP expanded and cannot tell the difference, may be the person needs to get another job.

I'd take an ammunition that would give me a "bonus" with a good probability than an ammunition that underperforms with consistancy.

 

[Darth AkSarBen]

Both Cor-Bon and Remington Golden Saber do an excellent job in both penetration and expansion. Cor-Bon in the DPX probably leads the best for it's consistency.
It has both expansion, even after leather and dennim, and dives in there deep.

 

[FM12]

I recently watched a television documentary on Court TV or a similar show, where a gentleman was charged with murder while using a JHP round, in quite obvious self defense. He was found guilty. An interview of some of the jury members stated that one of the reasons he was convicted by them was they felt he meant to kill by virtue of using expanding ammo. Read it and weep.

 

[La Pistoletta]

1911Tuner, why go for a bullet that is guaranteed to not expand instead of one that might, perhaps even probably so?

Consistency.

Then why not expect FMJ performance and then get the JHP performance as a bonus whenever it decides to work? You'll still behave, and shoot, exactly the same way. Just with better results with most of the bullets.

 

[BornAgainBullseye]

I saw police report statistics that say 60% of all .45ACP FMJ shootings resulted in a one shot stop. Not saying that they died or survived, just said that It stoped the perp from doing what he was doing. So shoot twice if you want a 120% chance of a stop

 

[La Pistoletta]

I saw police report statistics that say 60% of all .45ACP FMJ shootings resulted in a one shot stop. Not saying that they died or survived, just said that It stoped the perp from doing what he was doing. So shoot twice if you want a 120% chance of a stop

If math were that easy, I'd be good at math. Unfortunately it isn't. Not that this kind of simple probability could be applied to this situation, but even if it could, 2 * 60% in sequence equals 84% if I'm not mistaken.

 

[KINGMAX]

45 acp in 230 gr silvertips

I like the Winchester Silverbox 230 gr silvertips for my personal protection rounds. My choice of pistol is a GLOCK 21. I have fired nurmous HP rounds, and that GLOCK has no problem with them.

 

[Darth AkSarBen]

Sounds like somebody had a poor defense attorney. They should have argued that the JHP was designed to ' not go in to deep and cause death' although we know it may not always work that way.

Shoot 2 times center of mass and be ready for more. Might not need any more. Most people do not like getting shot even by .22 caliber.

I preferr Cor-Bon and Golden Saber Remington out of my .45. If they expand, great. Else they are still .45 caliber. I do want them to stop inside and not exit. Defense lawyer should note to jury that one was concerned for innocent bystanders and did not want any chance to harm them in the encounter as well.

 

[1911Tuner]

Then why not expect FMJ performance and then get the JHP performance as a bonus whenever it decides to work

1...Because I know what to expect from a solid SWC. I like knowing what to expect rather than place my hopes on "ifs" and...

2. A SWC with a flat nose and a pronounced shoulder will outperform hardball AND a failed hollowpoint.

 

[Ben86]

So hollow points don't always work. That's no reason not to use them as long as they function and shoot accuractly in your gun of choice. Why cut yourself short on stopping power?

That court t.v. guy should have brought up the fact that all law enforcement agencies in the US use JHP ammunition. ALL! Are they hell bent on murder? No, they also have valid reasons for using jhp ammunition.

 

[okespe04]

.45 ball has been dropping people for almost 100 years. This is why I chose the .45 over the 9mm. I feel very good about having a stockpile of cheap shtf .45 ball. That aside for defense I use jhp in my Glock21. I do not however buy the really fancy stuff. Winchester White box or any jhp that feeds is fine.

 

[inSight-NEO]

An interview of some of the jury members stated that one of the reasons he was convicted by them was they felt he meant to kill by virtue of using expanding ammo. Read it and weep.

I agree with what has been said regarding this outcome. The use of JHP ammo due to the fear of using "over-penetrating" alternatives should have been a strong consideration here. Not to mention, as stated before, JHP rounds are consistently used in LE and for good reason. I can only imagine what this jury would have said about using a shotgun loaded with 00-buck or slugs vs birdshot. However, Im somewhat inclined to think that there must be more to this story. I cant see the use of "expanding ammo" as being a major consideration when it comes to convicting someone. Particularly if it is a legitimate self-defense shooting. I might see an issue with it if the type of ammo used in this case was considered "illegal". Even then, I dont believe this would be enough to consider accusing someone of murder.

But, to address the main issue....I think FMJ simply does not have the "stopping" power vs JHP ammunition. Im sure both types of ammo can lead to good and/or bad results. But, overall, I think FMJ generally leads to "bleeding out" and JHP leads to "stopping cold". Also, as has been addressed many times, there is the issue of over-penetration. On the battlefield this may not be much of an issue. In urban areas it becomes a major issue. But, as seen earlier, even using the "proper" ammo can still get you into deep trouble. Its a shame...

 

[zammyman]

I don't carry 45 FMJ due to the higher penetration. Much rather have the bullet expand well and slow itself down a little quicker; It's not that much of a difference but every bit counts. I carry with 165 grain Federal HydraShocks. It certainly won't feed reliably in a GI 1911, but most other guns it does fine with.

 

[jwmtx]

Where do you guys live that you need this kind of protection. Are raging gun fights in the streets really very common? I have to say that I am 72 years old and have never needed a gun to protect myself. I live in the fourth largest city in the USA and have never even seen anyone get shot. I don't live a sheltered life either. I'm just the average Joe Blow. I think a lot of you just like to talk the talk, or your just scared. I would hate to be on the street with some of you paranoids. James

 

[okespe04]

I think a lot of you just like to talk the talk, or your just scared. I would hate to be on the street with some of you paranoids. James

I'm feeling a little threatened by this off topic statement. I got my LCP in my pocket but I think I will go get my G21 loaded with JHPs and put it next to my desk.

Seriously though; guns are a hobby. People talk about their hobbies.

 

[.38 Special]

I know where "jwmtx" is coming from. When you take a step back, some of this stuff steps right up to -- and often crosses -- the line between "what if" and "I can't wait!!!". Wait'll he gets a load of the "strategies and tactics" forum...

 

[.38 Special]

I saw police report statistics that say 60% of all .45ACP FMJ shootings resulted in a one shot stop. Not saying that they died or survived, just said that It stoped the perp from doing what he was doing. So shoot twice if you want a 120% chance of a stop

I'm pretty sure that's a Marshall and Evans stat. IOW, a lot of folks -- not including myself -- think it's nonsense. For my money it's the best evidence yet presented.

At any rate, I think the short answer to the expressed opinion is "The dice have no memory." Ignoring physiological responses and all that business, if something has a sixty percent chance of happening the first time you try it, the chance of it happening when you try the same thing again is... sixty percent. And ignoring physiological responses in this instance is foolish, as any hunter who has failed to drop his animal with the first shot can attest.

Overall, I remain shocked at how little used is the information gleaned from hunting. We have a vast stock of information provided by shooting people-sized game with a variety of different bullets. Game animals are obviously not exactly analogous to people, but again, there is a reason why so many states outlaw FMJ for hunting.

 

[inSight-NEO]

A bit off topic here, but I must address this one:

I think a lot of you just like to talk the talk, or your just scared.

Well, Im sure quite a few folks here live in areas where high crime rates prevail. I dont blame them one bit for being concerned about personal defense. For the rest of us, well... Even though the likelihood of a violent assault, particularly within the home, may be somewhat small.. its still there. After all, the world isnt becoming any safer. Personally, I prefer increasing the odds in my favor and not simply leaving things up to chance. Where HD or PD is concerned, hindsight just might mean a trip to the hospital or worse....

BTW- Some of us have not been fortunate enough to live our lives without having been a victim of violence. I myself was a victim of an armed assault (a few years back, while at a local carwash). It was not fun seeing/hearing the slide of a 9mm being racked and then having this very same gun shoved into my face. Nor was it fun being asked, along with my relative, to lie face down on the pavement. Was I scared?....yep. I just thank God that these people were more interested in taking a vehicle than in taking our lives.

Now, even with this having happened to me, I still dont feel inclined to carry a gun with me at all times (per conceal/carry permit). But, I have no problem using such a thing for home defense. Now that I have a family I will do whatever is necessary to prevent such a thing (as that night) from happening within my own home. For this, I keep a weapon around and have absolutely no reservations about it.

 

[MT GUNNY]

Im Running "MT Gold 185grs JHP" (similar to Gold Dot-HP) at 1000fps.

 

[Gun Slinger]

Why not ?

Because handguns in any caliber are much less than optimal for ending hostilities and regardless of what caliber is carried hollowpoints offer increased peformance in that regard.

Sure, we can carry FMJ. But just because "we can" doesn't mean that "we should".

I'll take every benefit that I can when it comes to such things.

 

[HorseSoldier]

On the other hand you have 45 acp a large bullet moving at a relatively slow speed. And everyone who is a fan of the 45acp knows about its stopping power with 230 ball. So I would really like to hear from some of you on the subject.

45 ACP isn't a heavy over-penetrator, so that's not as much of a concern as it might be with higher velocity/smaller cross section rounds. On the other hand, 230 grain FMJ is a pretty substandard man stopper, really. Lots of 45 fans like to act like the 38 revolver cartridge the US military fielded back during the Filipino Insurrection was identical to 9mm, but if you look at its actual ballistics it was extremely anemic -- more like a weak 380 ACP load. Compared to that, 45 ACP was better, but with modern technology and not limited by the laws of land warfare, JHP is better than FMJ.

 

[dacavasi]

I guess the fundamental question for all of the 'experts' who are basing their arguments entirely on published references in mostly gun-consumer publications is this: How many people have you personally shot? Simple question. Follow-up question: What did you shoot them with, and what was the effect? Here's my personal disclousre: 'Three'. The first 2 with a 12 gauge (very messy), the last one with a .45 FMJ (230 grain ball to be exact, also very messy...). I think the argument devolves very quickly when you limit the circumstances to the average personal-defense range. You get hit with a .45 of any bullet type (wadcutters included) and you are pretty much toast. Nuff said...