.45 ACP reloads, what am I doing wrong?

[Captaingyro]

If I'm reading the OP's post correctly, he's making some major errors in adjusting the seat/crimp die. I'll agree that RCBS's instructions can be confusing, but if you follow them step-by-step, to the letter, they actually do make sense.

The adjustment is done in four steps:

1. Start with an empty case (no bullet), run it up to the top of the stroke, then gently screw the die down until it just touches the case mouth. Now, back it off about one turn. You've now got the die body, which does the crimping, in the right neighborhood, but not in contact with the case at all.

2. Run the case down out of the die, place your bullet, and run it back up into the die so that the seater plug can seat it. The seating depth won't be perfect the first time, so make repeated adjustments to the seater plug until the COL is just right. (Remember, all this time there's no crimping going on, you're just getting the bullet depth right.)

3. Now, back the seater plug way off, so that it won't be contacting the round during the die adjustment step. With the round at the top of the press stroke, lower the die again until it just touches the case mouth (same thing you did in step one to get it "in the neighborhood"). Now, lower the case out of the die, and screw the die down about another eighth turn to add a slight amount of crimp. Raise the round back into the die, check the crimp, and continue to make small adjustments to the die body to get the crimp just right. Don't over do it! Once that's done, lock the die body at the correct depth with the large lock ring.

4. Once you've adjusted and locked the die body to get just the right amount of crimp, run the completed round up into the die once more, and return the seater plug to it's correct position by screwing it down until it contacts the bullet. Lock it in.

I'll bet dollars to donuts that the OP's problem results from having the die body adjusted too low (i.e., for too much crimp). What happens in this case is that the seater plug is trying to seat the bullet deeper at the same time the die body is crimping it tighter and tighter. At some point, something's got to give, and what usually gives is the case, becoming somewhat crushed and swollen. (Remember, this isn't a sizer die, so case is free to expand).

Despite the fact that it adds a step, the beauty of the LFCD is that it avoids this "conflict of interest", where the seater plug wants to push the bullet deeper at the same time the die body is squeezing it tighter and tighter, resisting the seating. Another advantage of the LFCD is that there's a carbide sizer ring, which guarantees that, after the crimping is done, any bulging is ironed out so that the round is trued up and returned, if necessary, to the correct dimension.

 

[454PB]

Just be aware that that "post seating" carbide sizing ring in the Lee FCD can actually size down the bullet if the bullet is oversized (over .451") or the brass is especially thick. Yes, they may fit the chamber well, but that undersized bullet can be inaccurate and/or cause leading with a cast bullet.

Much of the old military brass has extra thick sidewalls. Using the Lee FCD and .452" cast bullets will result in a .450" or smaller bullet after the trip through the FCD.

 

[Walkalong]

the beauty of the LFCD is that it avoids this "conflict of interest"

There is no "conflict of interest" worth mentioning when lightly and properly crimping .45 ACP in one step along with seating. There is so little crimp going on in such a short space when seating and crimping simultaneously with .45 ACP it works just as well as crimping separately.

There are some crimp operations that must be done separately from seating, but .45 ACP is not one of them.

Just be aware that that "post seating" carbide sizing ring in the Lee FCD can actually size down the bullet if the bullet is oversized (over .451") or the brass is especially thick. Yes, they may fit the chamber well, but that undersized bullet can be inaccurate and/or cause leading with a cast bullet.

Yep. A solution for a non problem.

 

[GLOOB]

Now, his die may roll crimp and remove the bell from the mouth of the case, but that's still not taper crimping. A taper crimp literally "irons" or swages the case mounth tight against the bullet.

Removing the bell IS a taper crimp. You can try to "literally iron or swage the case mouth tight against the bullet" all you want, but brass rebounds more than lead, so this is counterproductive. The neck is the tightest it's going to get, the moment the bullet is seated. Anything you do from there will only decrease tension.

A roll crimp prevents bullet movement by physically interlocking the mouth to the bullet. It do not increase the tension between the two surfaces. An extreme example of this is a .22LR bullet. Oftentimes, you can tilt and move the bullet around, it's so loose. The roll crimp keeps it in place, but there's a complete lack of neck tension. Unless you're taper crimping enough to get the inner edge of the mouth under "the skin" of the bullet (which many would say is too much), it will only serve to decrease neck tension. My goal is to set the taper crimp just enough to remove the flare, while reducing neck tension as little as possible. It's neck tension and the sized brass behind the base of the bullet that should be preventing setback.

 

[Walkalong]

It's neck tension and the sized brass behind the base of the bullet that should be preventing setback.

Absolutely!

 

[918v]

We need a sticky explaining the principles of metallic cartrige assembly.

 

[Captaingyro]

There is no "conflict of interest" worth mentioning when lightly and properly crimping .45 ACP in one step along with seating.

Exactly. I suspect that the OP's problems result from the fact that "lightly and properly" isn't what's going on. Overdoing it can cause crushing and bulging, which would explain the symptoms he's describing.

 

[35 Whelen]

Removing the bell IS a taper crimp. The neck is the tightest it's going to get, the moment the bullet is seated. Anything you do from there will only decrease tension.

Sorry, Chuck but 'tain't so. Removing the bell is, well, removing the bell. If it weren't so, then die manufacturers wouldn't sell taper crimp dies such as the one I've been using for nigh on 30 years. Incidently, it did not come with the three die set; had to be ordered separately.

You can try to "literally iron or swage the case mouth tight against the bullet" all you want, but brass rebounds more than lead, so this is counterproductive.

Well, if brass "rebounded", then after sizing, it would eventually return to its original shape, right? Likewise, if this were true, then the 45's I loaded some months or years ago would lose their (taper) crimp, but rest assured they have not.
If you don't believe me, shoot an e-mail to RCBS or one of the other companies that make taper crimpers and just ask 'em!
35W

 

[918v]

Brass springs back, but does not spring back to it's original dimension. Brass does indeed spring back more than lead. Steel springs back more than brass, still.

Maybe some of us should learn to understand how guns work:

Firing pin strikes the primer which ignites the powder. Pressure builds inside the case which expands to seal the chamber. This pressure pushes the bullet out the barrel. Once the bullet leaves the barrel, the pressure drops and the case walls spring back away from the chamber wall, thus allowing us to extract the case.

The case walls, however, do not spring back all the way to the original dimension of the case. They spring back maybe .001". If a typical case is .010" smaller in diameter than the chamber, then post-firing the case is about .009" larger and needs to be resized.

When assembling a metallic cartrige, the same principles apply, except in reverse: The sizing die swages the case walls to a smaller diameter than the bullet. The case mouth expander plug opens up that inner diameter to .002" under the bullet's diameter. Seating the bullet in the case under tension from the case walls creates friction which retains the bullet in place.

Now, the case mouth is flared and the taper crimp die needs to press it against the bullet. Because brass springs back more than lead, you will never achieve any tension using a taper crimp die. The more crimp you apply, the more lead you will displace and the brass will always spring back away from the lead.

The taper crimp is there to restore the case for feeding reliability, not to retain the bullet.

 

[Walkalong]

The taper crimp is there to restore the case for feeding reliability, not to retain the bullet.

Which we have to post over and over.

Neck tension does 90% or better, depending on the app, of the work holding bullets still in the case.

 

[GLOOB]

Well, if brass "rebounded", then after sizing, it would eventually return to its original shape, right? Likewise, if this were true, then the 45's I loaded some months or years ago would lose their (taper) crimp, but rest assured they have not.

The brass rebounds, instantly. IOW, as soon as you remove your brass from the sizing die, it's OD immediately increases a thousandth or more compared to the ID of the die. The die is sized to account for this. Don't believe me? Try sizing a case, then take out your die. Turn it upside down and drop the case in. It won't go back in unless you push on it. The more work hardened the brass is, the more it will rebound. After many firings, old brass may no longer size, correctly. It goes all the way in the sizing die, but when it comes out, it instantly rebounds out of spec. Annealing will restore the malleability of the brass.

So apply this concept to the taper crimp. When you crimp the bullet, you are squishing both the brass and lead smaller. When you let go, even if both bullet and brass rebounded the same degree, you'd still have a net of zero tension - bullet and brass would simply rest next to each other. Compare this to seating the bullet. The brass is a couple thousandths smaller than the bullet, to begin with. So when you stuff the bullet in, the brass is trying to rebound INWARD while the bullet is trying to rebound OUTWARD: thus, tension is created.

 

[35 Whelen]

Because brass springs back more than lead, you will never achieve any tension using a taper crimp die. The more crimp you apply, the more lead you will displace and the brass will always spring back away from the lead.

That's funny!

The taper crimp is there to restore the case for feeding reliability, not to retain the bullet.

Again, bullbutter.....other than yes, it does increase feed reliability. If this is true, then why is a taper crimp die, called a...crimp die? Could it be because it CRIMPS the bullet in place?

Here's a quote from Midway's website where they describe an RCBS 45 ACP taper crimper:
"The crimp gently tapers tighter and tighter to hold the bullet in place." (Emphasis added)

Maybe you should drop them a note and explain their error.

This forum is the FIRST time in 30 years of reloading and reading loading manuals that I've ever seen the term "rebound" used to describe anything in reloading. Now people are telling me my brass rebounds and that of all things, even my lead bullets rebound!!
Let me briefly tell you what happens when I seat a bullet in a cartridge. First, the sizing operation decreased the diameter of the case mouth to the point that it has a smaller I.D. than the bullet O.D. As such, the case mouth has been slightly flared to a diameter slightly greater than the diameter of the bullet. The bullet is seated at which point it expands the mouth of the case as it enters the case. Notice, the case mouth increases in diameter, the bullet does NOT decrease in diameter and I'm not pressing brass and lead together. Next, a taper crimp is applied to facilitate feeding AND to hold the bullet in place. If for some reason I decide to remove said bullet from the loaded round, guess what? It'll be exactly the same diameter as it was when I seated it!
Nothing dribbles, passes, shoots free-throws, or even rebounds. Ever.

No offense, but I think this is a classic example of folks doing more handloading at the keyboard than at the bench.

35W

 

[918v]

Do you understand the concept of "springback"?

 

[GLOOB]

Here's a quote from Midway's website where they describe an RCBS 45 ACP taper crimper:
"The crimp gently tapers tighter and tighter to hold the bullet in place." (Emphasis added)

Midway doesn't write the laws of physics!

 

[Skylerbone]

Back to the question at hand, to the OP: since you're picking range brass, are you also measuring case length? If you have longer and shorter cases and try crimping them at a set length you'll simply end up with garbage. Some will have too little, some too much. Brass preparation is seldom stressed enough.

 

[jeadams]

I was thinking along the same lines as Skylerbone. While most will say that trimming pistol brass/straight walled cases is not necessary, I still trim at times or measure and separate them by length. This is for anything that I am going to taper crimp.

 

[hAkron]

I took one of the rounds that wouldnt chamber and I backed out the seating plug and slowly tightened down the die body just a little bit at a time and drop tested the cartridge until it would sit nicely in the barrel. I think the problem all along was the crimp. The only problem is that the crimp I ended up with seems to my eye a little heavy (not like a roll crimp on a .38 or anything). I will test a few of these rounds and if they run well then I guess I will be good. If not I will pickup a lee factory crimp die and see if I get better results.

 

[GLOOB]

Put calipers on the case mouth. Anything from .468 to .472 is a reasonable target. While you're at it, put calipers on the case length and OAL and bulet diameter.

My reloads have no distinguishable crimp to the naked eye. Dunno what you did there, but something sounds off - something you masked by over-crimping.

 

[243winxb]

I think the problem all along was the crimp.

As i said before >

Seat bullet deeper, shorter COL and/or taper crimp more.

 

[seansco]

hAkron, did you ever figure this out. I have the exact equipment and having the exact problem. I can seem to get by ("only" 14 budged) out of 100 if I run the ram up real slow.

 

[Welding Rod]

I would check the barrel's chamber.

My Kimber acted similarly. It would feed factory ammo, but not my handloads. I was using .452" cast bullets. The extra .001" was enough to tie up the gun.

When Kimber stamped "45 acp" on the outside of the chamber, they hit it hard enough that it put a substantial bump inside the chamber.

 

[seansco]

How I am testing them is I am using a go no-go gauge.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/171349/le-wilson-max-cartridge-gage-45-acp I have some that are just a little tight; usually a budge in the case at the bottom of where the bullet is. Sometimes there is even a rub mark on the outside of the case after dropping it into the guage. If they are just a little tight, they will still work in my gun (Taurus pt845) but I would like them to be "right".