.45 ACP versus .223; 10 feet away

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by DefiantDad, Jun 10, 2012.

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  1. Skribs

    Skribs Member

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    I have to agree with General Goeff on .308 vs. .223. Here, you're sort of once again getting into a caliber war, although it's .308 vs. .223 instead of .45 vs. 9mm. However, it is a bit different, because the .308 actually does offer a bigger wound tract.

    Personally, I'd rather have lighter recoil. If there are multiple assailants, I want to switch faster, and the .223 will allow me to do that easier. This is once I get a rifle, of course. For now, I have a shotgun, and that does the job just fine.
     
  2. Teachu2

    Teachu2 Member

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    One shot at ten feet on an armed assailant - it will be a .45acp, simply because I have 35 years of practice with one. Ten feet is very close, 6.5 feet from the muzzle if I extend my arms, two or three steps from the assailant and closing. I will be much faster (supremely important in this scenario) with a pistol, and much more confident in my abilities.

    There is no doubt in my mind that a hit with a .223 will do more damage than a hit with a .45 will. I am much more confident in achieving a hit with the .45 in this scenario, given the distance (=time!) and the training and experience I bring to the table. That's my reality - YRMV.
     
  3. psyopspec

    psyopspec Member

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    That's the single most sensical reason for choosing the pistol.
     
  4. Skribs

    Skribs Member

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    Psyop, I think there are more reasons to choose a pistol over a long gun than just what teachu brings up (even though I'd choose a long gun), but its the hardest reason to argue with. Of course, I could say "practice more with a rifle" :p
     
  5. sixgunner455

    sixgunner455 Member

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    Interesting discussion.

    5.56mm AR. No question. I like pistols, have a fair few, and carry as much as I legally can. But whenever I need to destroy something, if I have time to prepare ahead of time, I get a rifle. Rifle>pistol.

    AR carbine is light, short, accurate, hits hard, holds 30 rounds, rapid follow-up shots - the scenario provided says "one shot at 10 feet" - at that range, I'm more likely to dump five or six rounds into the target before I can get my finger to stop twitching, but it's usually going to get at least two or three.
     
  6. engineer88

    engineer88 Member

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    NG VI you should change your screen name to nitpicker perhaps. I meant weight not density. Not sure why I typed density. Either way it doesn't make me the dumbest person on the planet nor you the smartest for noting my poor choice of verbage. I guess maybe a Grammar Police gold star?

    I suffer no delusion that the 45 will do as much damage. I have done plenty of long hours of reading and understand ballistics and temporary wound cavity, etc. My thought was that at 10 feet in my house (which ain't a mansion, so 10' is about right, lol) the 45 would be plenty and I would worry less about the velocity left on the round after a miss (I do have neighbors). Would the 223 or other rifle round work better? Probably, but the question was which would YOU choose.

    I think the post above about the handgun seeming small is very relevant. I sometimes wish I could carry a rifle with me every where. However, I am more glad that I do not live anywhere I would need to and pray I never will. Heck, I hope I never need my pistol either, but it is with me whenever legal to carry it, just in case.
    My original conclusion stands, the OP should go with what HE feels most comfortable with.
     
  7. General Geoff

    General Geoff Member

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    .223 penetrates less drywall than .45acp. it has much higher muzzle velocity but bleeds off speed way faster when going through barriers. I would worry more about the .45 overpenetrating than the .223.
     
  8. Creature

    Creature Member

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    Skribs wrote:
    A box magazine for the Saiga is no match to an AR 30 round mag in terms of magazine capacity...only with a drum mag will be able to shoot 30 rounds from a Saiga.

    In terms of maneuverability, I cant imagine how a Saiga shotgun with a drum mag would match up to an AR carbine...

    One thing is for sure though, the Saiga shotgun still wont come close to an AR carbine in terms of follow-up shot speed.
     
  9. gym

    gym member

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    45, works for me, bigger hole, at close range wouldn't worry about wound cavity, just 2 or 3, 45's in the chest and head. I just don't like rifles in small spaces, unless you are experienced shooting in a shoot house. Too many things can happen that are hard to correct, like hitting a wall with the stock or clearing a jam, overpenetrating, blowing out your ears, and it's overkill, that's why we have handguns.
     
  10. Auto426

    Auto426 Member

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    It can be collapsed, but I find my rifle uncomfortable to hold and hard to aim with the stock collapsed. And I'm sure that you can show plenty of videos of you running around your house with a rifle, but your house is not my house. You don't know what obstacles there may be to maneuvering inside of my home.

    For me, the pistol is simply a better option. I'm much quicker with it and I can get around my house much easier with it. It may not do as much damage in a single shot as a .223, but it's still very capable of eliminating the threat quickly and efficiently.
     
  11. Skribs

    Skribs Member

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    The stretch cavity makes the .223 produce a bigger hole. Plus, overpenetration is more likely with a .45 than with a .223. Hitting the wall with the stock? If it's on your shoulder, how does it hit the wall? Maybe the barrel...
    Clearing a jam? I don't see how that is harder indoors. "Overkill"...I want something more powerful if it's gonna get the job done. We have handguns because they're a compromise.

    Only thing that made sense in your post was the sound issue.
     
  12. gym

    gym member

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    Plus I have a pistol on my person, I would have to get a rifle and load it. The probability of having time to do that contradicts every reason that I carry a gun. Having had armed assailants in my home, I can gaurantee you that you won't have time to go and get your rifle in the 3 to 4 seconds that somone comes through your door. If you knew they were coming you could have planted land mines. But for practical purposes I don't know anyone who carries an AR around.
     
  13. Skribs

    Skribs Member

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    I find it very hard to believe that when someone comes through my front door, I won't have time to get to my long gun. Unless I wait until they're in my room to go for a gun.
     
  14. Rampant_Colt

    Rampant_Colt Member

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    .223 > .45 acp

    This one's a no-brainerâ–¬ 5.56/.223


    My preference is for a shotgun stoked with reduced recoil 00 buckshot (conversely, I sometimes use #4 buck) with Hydra-Shok slugs in the side-saddle
     
  15. DC Plumber

    DC Plumber Member

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    OK, I gotta play too.

    I've never been in any type of combat or threat situation, ever! I've read all of the threads so far. To answer the question by the OP, it seems so logical that one shot from a .223 is going give way better results than a 45acp. Neglecting the fact that a bullet may cause collateral damage was not part of the question, so again the .223 wins. A 30 round mag was not an option either.

    One shot, ballistically and taking into account tissue damage, the .223 sounds like the winner.

    If I were on the receiving end of the situation, facing either one at 10 feet, being unarmed, I'd soil myself and run like heck. I'm sure either round would do the job.

    That all said, I do not feel under armed with my 45acp.
     
  16. Gordon
    • Contributing Member

    Gordon Contributing Member

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    10 FEET? Well I guess that is the purpose of my Noveske Diplomat 5.56 7.5" AR pistol ! I keep a 20 round mag in it loaded with Ranger Bonded ammo and it has a light and laser and T-1 Aimpoint on it. It is locked up in the fortified closet with a Class IIa vest with a few things on it for those up close and personal times. :cool:
     
  17. General Geoff

    General Geoff Member

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    Even that doesn't make sense. .45ACP pistol has a louder report than .223 out of a rifle, as I cited earlier in the thread.
     
  18. Rampant_Colt

    Rampant_Colt Member

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    There's no such thing as "overkill" in a self-defense scenario
     
  19. GunnerShotz

    GunnerShotz Member

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    Wow, five pages of "handgun vs long-gun" in a defensive scenario here in the Handgun: Autoloader section! :neener:

    No disrespect intended to DefiantDad or Any of the other respondants. I sincerely think this has been a great post!

    Given that I "probably have the element of surprise", then I probably have had time to call 911 and I have positioned myself in the best defensible area I can find with the most reliable weapon available. Given the choices (as I see them), that would be .223 ;)
     
  20. engineer88

    engineer88 Member

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    @ GG, your right, I saw a nice demonstration of that on Guns and Ammo show or one of those. Since I don't own a 223 and my only long guns are a 22LR and a 7.62x54 the 45acp works better for me in MY house.

    Heck I just want one of those little things that look like a small toolbox but fold out into a miniature glock carbine. Saw that on a show the other day and immediately wanted one. Not really even sure what I would use it for, but it was super cool. :-D
     
  21. DefiantDad

    DefiantDad Member

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    This thread has WAY exceeded my expectations for answers, but it has been very informative. :)

    By the way, I came across some news that the DHS is contracting for 7000 firearms in 5.56 NATO with a new twist: the requirement of concealability. So it seems they agree with the analysis that even at close range (and even without a long barrel or stock), the rifle caliber is preferable to a handgun caliber.

    Apparently there are a few pistol-type (not SBR) 5.56 firearms already. So, it's an interesting thought.
     
  22. TarDevil

    TarDevil Member

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    I've read through nearly all this thread and haven't seen one aspect discussed...

    Good friend/customer of mine owns a safe full of ARs and another full of sniper rifles, handguns from derringers to Dessert Eagles. His wife is a lawyer... she tells him if HD is necessary, use something other than an AR.

    Not saying I agree, just saying...
     
  23. NG VI

    NG VI Member

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    Why do you have to fully extend your carbine's stock? Are you 7'11"? In the first photo it's impossible to tell whether they have 14.5" M4-type uppers, or if they've got 16" uppers on. A 16" AR with the stock collapsed is what, 29-31" long? Unless you are 4'11", the difference between a 16 and an NFA compliant 10-14.5" barrel won't make a legitimate difference in handling, and the firing position shouldn't leave the rifle any further out than a pistol in firing position.

    And you can only lower your pistol so far before the large, exposed, moving mechanism of it starts to short stroke because the slide is taking chunks out of your wrist.

    To follow up on post #89, there is such a thing as too much. It's why .223 is such a successful service rifle cartridge, despite being so much less powerful than the .30-06/.308 rifles it replaced. .223 rifles have been proven best in class for combat over the years because it is such a good blend of all of the characteristics that make a fighting weapon successful.

    You really can't make a .223 a harsh recoiler, it'll always be pretty moderate at worst, light and sweet from most rifles.

    It is fast enough to deliver some good hydrostatic shock effects, and the projectile is skinny enough that it's very easy to make a fragile bullet that really exacerbates the shock wounds by coming to pieces. .308 loads are plenty fast enough for hydrostatic shock, but the physically more robust dimensions of .30 caliber bullets and the overwhelming demand for large game hunting bullets means you have fewer choices in .308 that are properly designed for human enemies, and the most commonly found options are going to be tailored for animals larger than us and built very differently than us.
     
  24. snake eater 332

    snake eater 332 Member

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    5.56/.233 all day, every day over any normal handgun SD round. SD handgun calibers suck at killing people in general. Rifles, on the other hand....
     
  25. NG VI

    NG VI Member

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    Magazine size wasn't brought up, and basically any self-loading .223 rifle is going to take STANAG magazines, even if it isn't an AR. Doesn't mean it's irrelevant, he did say he wanted to know about the first shot mostly in case something prevented a second.

    And a service pistol, 9mm, .357, .40, .45, those calibers are all better suited for punching through building materials than .223 in basically any loading. It's not about MoaR or le$$ "powerful", it's about tailoring your weapon and projectile to the target you need to shoot. People require very different medicine than elk, which is why .308 and up is usually a far from ideal choice. Pistols don't have the wide margins that rifles do, so designers are stuck in a narrower range of bullet weights and velocities, where a rifle cartridge can be designed around the target with a much larger window for success.


    And engineer that was kind of a dick thing to say. You're still wrong, but there was no need for me to deliver the news like that.
     
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