45 acp

[buba68]

ok so i did the plunk test and the bullet seats at 1.25 on the nose to spin in the barrel with no feel of it dragging, with a small crimp

Ok you have got a lot of replies from a lot of well meaning people on the forum but take a deep breath and work through things one step at a time.

You have the correct COL for your barrel and bullet combination. If it spins freely the crimp should be ok.

Next thing is to get the correct starting powder charge for your bullet. One of the other posters copied a page from Hodgdon's site which showed starting load at 4.0 grains the other showed a starting load at 4.4 grains depending on which brand of bullet you have. I would start out with 4.4 grains and load maybe 10 rounds and see how they function. If they cycle the slide and eject the brass ok then load up some more at that same charge if they work ok then you can stay at that charge weight or gradually move up in .1 grain increments until you reach max powder charge if you want to go to max.

For just range shooting/plink I don't usually load to max just a nice mid range load.

Keep us posted on your progress and we will get you through your problems. Remember fix one problem at a time.

 

[Charlie98]

i use a hornady ap press, and dies. have tried the amounts from minimume to not full load. but i didnt know about the plunk test have tried different COL but cant figure it out. now i know that the bullets seats at 1.25 in the barrel, do i leave it at that length or do i back it out a little bit?. i also use large primer, what is the next step now?

What charge weight are you using?
What load data are you referencing?
What bullet are you using... all bullets are not the same, what specific bullet are you using?

 

[rfwobbly]

When reloading for an auto pistol, there is a definite sequence of events that must be followed.

1) The first step is to certify your Taper Crimp diameter at the case mouth. As per Walkalong's photo in post #2, the case mouth must be crimped precisely. This dimension may vary by 0.001" if you are loading mixed brands of brass, but the average of 10 finished cartridges must be in this range. The dimensions we are dealing with are smaller than a human hair, and so setting the die may take 30 minutes or longer. It can be extremely aggravating, but it must be done.



There is no such thing as a "light crimp" or a "small crimp", there is only the correct crimp. There is absolutely no use in moving further until your finished cartridges display the correct crimp.

2) When we are sure the Taper Crimp is fully allowing the cartridge to head space on the end of the chamber, THEN we can move on toward arriving at a suitable OAL that allows your bullet to be shot safely in your chamber.

• All barrels are different; all bullets are different. Therefore your results may vary from everyone else.
• The OAL in the manual is not a recommendation, it's part of the lab report just like the powder weight and chamber pressure.
• All auto pistols allow a range of OALs.
• When you discover the OAL that allows the cartridge to freely spin, you have merely identified the Max OAL. That is merely the "high" end of the OAL range, which may not be the optimum OAL in your gun when feeding and accuracy are also considered.

Hope this helps.
.

 

[mmb617]

As a point of reference I can tell you what I use but that doesn't mean it will be right for you. I've loaded 230 gr FMJ using both Titegroup and CFE pistol. I only have one gun that shoots that round so I plunk test using it's barrel. I have been using a COL of 1.20 and run every round through a Lee factory crimp die to remove any excessive bell. If I don't do that some rounds don't pass the plunk test. I was having some feed problems before I started using the crimp die but now those problems are gone.

I used 4.4 grains of Titegroup at first and it worked but I didn't like so little case fill in those larger cases so I switched to CFE at 6.4 grains. These are relatively light loads that chronoed around 800 fps through my 4" barrel.

 

[Walkalong]

will add that hogdon states 1.200 for 45acp. If you look they use the 1.200 COL for their loads, which is way too low.

Yep. That was for their 230 Gr TrFP, and was a good oal for it, but RN need to be loaded longer.

 

[Jim Watson]

Yeah, drives me nuts. I don't believe Hornady even makes that bullet any more.
And Hodgdon shows 1.20" OAL for a 230 cast roundnose, too, which is just not going to work. It gives conservative loads because of the reduced powder space, but it is very confusing to the Recipe Hunter.

A Reloading Adventure in the works.
A friend discovered some .45 bullets on the back of the shelf and has bought some from a nearly retired bullseye shooter whose volume is way down.
First lot: Cast roundnose. Feed, fire, and function, but smoky in an indoor range.

Second lot: Hornady "waffle weave" swaged SWCs.
Third lot: Jacketed SWCs as used in factory match ammo.
Trial loading of these on recommendations of the bullseye shooter were to get under way yesterday. I will see the results next week.
These bullets are of the short nosed target SWC style, similar to H&G 130; not the more common long H&G 68 copy. I have my fingers crossed on his behalf, these are not the smoothest feeders unless the gun is "throated" for them.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

i've got one of though thing that look like a socket that you drop the shell into to see if it fits, would that be the same thing?

Yep, but using the barrel itself is better -- there may be slight dimensional differences between your gauge and the barrel.

 

[murf]

Welcome. What reloading manual are you using?

murf

 

[higgite]

Yep, but using the barrel itself is better -- there may be slight dimensional differences between your gauge and the barrel.

^^^^ Definitely.
A typical gauge won't tell you whether or not your COL is short enough to keep the bullet from hitting the lands when chambered in your pistol. That takes a barrel plunk test.

 

[mdi]

Not much I can add, but it sounds like you may need a good reloading manual. In the data section for each caliber and bullet, how much of which type powder to use and the recommended OAL for the specific bullet being loaded is plainly listed. My Lyman manual I keep on my desk is a 49th Edition (50th is in my shop) and it gives a good run down of hand gun cartridge reloading along with a good variety of load data. I don't shoot my handloads through a cartridge gauge but through my guns, so I check my ammo with the barrel of my gun...

Example in Lyman Reloading Handbook, 49th Edition; Speer FMJ 230 gr, bullet, OAL 1.275". No recommendation for Titegroup, but 12 other powders...

 

[sifer1]

i did the plunk test and set the press for that. with a slight crimp. i load 3 rounds each for tightgroup powder and have loaded 4.4grains, 4.5 grains, 4.6 grains, and 4.7grains. as a test run.is that a good thing to do for now.?

 

[sifer1]

I've used cfe, bullseye, W231, & WST (currently my favorite for 45acp reloads)

For COL I have settled between 1.240 - 1.260. currently I use 1.250 and WST.

I will add that hogdon states 1.200 for 45acp. If you look they use the 1.200 COL for their loads, which is way too low.

I never noticed it, but I pasted some photos when I was working up a load and a several folks commented that the COL was too low. I don't remember who posted, but they commented that hogdon used 1.200 for all their 45acp load data. This COL is way too low. I referenced several sources for 230 RN bullets and the 45acp COL data fell between 1.240-1.260 (unless you are using SWC bullets). I've done the plunk test and 1.260 works on all my 45's. Because depending on the powder and bullet the reference states 1.240, I decided to split the difference (no ill effects) and go with 1.250.

Good luck.

i worked it out that it sits at 1.25 on the nose.

 

[sifer1]

i also use a hornady book

 

[buba68]

i did the plunk test and set the press for that. with a slight crimp. i load 3 rounds each for tightgroup powder and have loaded 4.4grains, 4.5 grains, 4.6 grains, and 4.7grains. as a test run.is that a good thing to do for now.?

Yes that is ok to see if your loads will function ok in your gun. I would load like 7 rounds for each powder group. 7 rounds would be a magazine if you are using 7 round mags. If they all function ok figure out which one you want to go with and load you up some. Just don't load too many until you try out more and make sure they work ok.
Keep us posted on your progress.

 

[sifer1]

I've used cfe, bullseye, W231, & WST (currently my favorite for 45acp reloads)

For COL I have settled between 1.240 - 1.260. currently I use 1.250 and WST.

I will add that hogdon states 1.200 for 45acp. If you look they use the 1.200 COL for their loads, which is way too low.

I never noticed it, but I pasted some photos when I was working up a load and a several folks commented that the COL was too low. I don't remember who posted, but they commented that hogdon used 1.200 for all their 45acp load data. This COL is way too low. I referenced several sources for 230 RN bullets and the 45acp COL data fell between 1.240-1.260 (unless you are using SWC bullets). I've done the plunk test and 1.260 works on all my 45's. Because depending on the powder and bullet the reference states 1.240, I decided to split the difference (no ill effects) and go with 1.250.

Good luck.

what is your load amount you use for cfe? iam sitting at 1.25 now for oal

 

[sifer1]

Does your CRIMP die roll crimp or taper crimp??

taper crimp hornady seating and crimping die

 

[Crazy Horse]

what is your load amount you use for cfe? iam sitting at 1.25 now for oal

For CFE I use a load amount of 5.6 grains with a COAL of 1.240. Hogdon has the CFE powder load range as the following 5.4 - 6.2 grains.

 

[buba68]

what is your load amount you use for cfe? iam sitting at 1.25 now for oal

The COL is determined by the bullet you use and the barrel of your gun. The powder charge has no affect on the COL

 

[IlikeSA]

Four words for you, and I know it won't be popular: Lee factory crimp die. I used to have the same issues and was so frustrated, then I got that die and my issues stopped.

You still need to get the charge right, as well as the OAL. Others have given you good advice on that.

My guns like Titegroup for 45 acp, with Bullseye a close second. You'd be amazed at the personality of a gun and barrel in what they like.

 

[LiveLife]

i didnt know about the plunk test ... now i know that the bullets seats at 1.25 in the barrel, do i leave it at that length or do i back it out a little bit? ... what is the next step now

Next thing is to get the correct starting powder charge for your bullet

Not so fast.

Using the barrel for the "plunk test" will determine the "max OAL" that will work for the barrel but that length may not reliably feed from the magazine. (There's another reloading variable of resized case length as shorter case will allow more bullet nose to stick above the case mouth but I won't go into that in this post)

Before you move onto powder work up, you need to determine the "working OAL" that reliably feed from the magazine and chamber in the barrel as slide cycles. Often the working OAL could be the same length as max OAL but sometimes the working OAL is shorter.

So make dummy round (No powder, No primer) and feed it from the magazine by releasing the slide without riding it. If dummy round reliably feeds, your max OAL is the working OAL also. If not, incrementally decrease the OAL by .005" until it does. And while you are measuring for working OAL, it is also good to measure before/after feeding/chambering to see if you are experiencing bullet setback.

And once you determine the working OAL, then you can move on to the powder work up.

Hodgdon lists the following for 230 gr bullet and Titegroup - http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

• 45ACP 230 gr Lead RN Titegroup COL 1.200" Start 4.0 gr (751 fps) - Max 4.8 gr (855 fps)

• 45ACP 230 gr FMJ FP Titegroup COL 1.200" Start 4.4 gr (744 fps) - Max 4.8 gr (818 fps)

Since Hodgdon FMJ load data is for flat point (FP) bullet which usually gets seated deeper than RN and your FMJ RN OAL is longer, I would reference the FMJ FP start/max charges (And especially because load data for Lead RN max is 4.8 gr at shorter 1.200" OAL).

i load 3 rounds each for tightgroup powder and have loaded 4.4grains, 4.5 grains, 4.6 grains, and 4.7grains. as a test run.is that a good thing to do for now.?

I am not a fan of 3 shot groups and even moved from 5 shot groups to 10 shot groups as 3-5 shot groups did not provide sufficient target information.

I now load 10 rounds of .2-.3 gr increment for my powder work up to determine the powder charge that will reliably cycle the slide and extract/eject spent case and then 20+ rounds in .1 gr increment to monitor for accuracy trend.

So if you want to limit the number of rounds for powder work up, I would load 5 rounds of 4.4 and 4.5 gr and 10 rounds of 4.6, 4.7, 4.8 gr for accuracy testing.

Lee factory crimp die. I used to have the same issues and was so frustrated, then I got that die and my issues stopped.

So what did recreational reloaders and match shooters do before Lee produced FCD? When I loaded USPSA match rounds (9mm/40S&W/45ACP) for aftermarket barrels with tighter chambers, my reloading mentor told me to keep the FCD in the die box and learn to adjust dies to make them work even in tighter barrels.

While I am a fan of Lee Precision products made in the USA, I do not use FCD for straight walled semi-auto pistol cases (FCD for rimmed revolver cases to apply roll crimp is different) as carbide ring can mask die set up issues or tilted seated bullets. And if used with larger sized bullets, can post-size and brass spring back could reduce neck tension and increase bullet setback.

I do believe FCD has an application to be used as a "finishing die" but not beneficial when new reloaders are learning to adjust dies initially.

 

[ballman6711]

learn to adjust dies to make them work even in tighter barrels.

This is very good advice. I neither have nor use Lee dies, so I can't comment on those.

For my 45acp Kimber, I have to adjust my dies for the short tight chamber. It usually feeds factory ammo fine, although it will have the occasional failure to feed. My reloads, however, have worked 100% since I learned to adjust my dies properly for my barrel. I have tried to duplicate factory 230gr fmj with no luck. I suspect that my bullet ogive is slightly different than the factory rounds. My rounds are always shorter. But using a 185gr swc bullet I can duplicate the factory oal, at least with the bullets I've used so far.

Using the barrel for the "plunk test" will determine the "max OAL" that will work for the barrel but that length may not reliably feed from the magazine.

This is also correct. And it's why we make dummy rounds for testing function, a live round could lead to an accidental discharge.

I am not a fan of 3 shot groups and even moved from 5 shot groups to 10 shot groups as 3-5 shot groups did not provide sufficient target information.

I also load 10 rounds per charge when doing a load workup.

LiveLife has given you very good advice IMO.

chris

 

[sifer1]

ok looked on the hornady reloading site today, when i checked for the load amount it says https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol but it says fp at the end instead of rn. what gives?

 

[sifer1]

i checked the oal started at 1.75 and worked my way back to 1.25 oal which spins in the barrel and when i put the gun back together, and loaded from the mag, the chamber seemed to close all the way with no issue. i then made 3 rounds each of titegroup powder from the starting load of 4.4 grains to 4.5 grns, 4.6 grn 4.7 grains. all at the same oal. will try them today. i hope this works very frusterated

 

[ballman6711]

230 GR. HDY FMJ FP

This is a 230 grain Hornady full metal jacket FLAT POINT. The nose is not round like a traditional 230gr ball round.

Using this data you may/will have to use a different OAL.

Give them a try and report back.

chris

 

[buba68]

ok looked on the hornady reloading site today, when i checked for the load amount it says https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol but it says fp at the end instead of rn. what gives?

FP means flat point bullet shape. RN means round nose bullet shape which is what you are telling us you have.