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.45 and 1911 losing ground?

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by wgp, May 18, 2016.

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  1. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

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    Well, maybe.

    Try this -- shoot at a sheet of typing paper with a .22, then examine the hole.

    First of all, there will be shreds of paper trailing backward from the hole. Put your finger over those shreds, pushing them back into position, and examine the hole.

    You will see an irregular hole, much smaller than a .22 bullet, with tears radiating outward from the hole. (The diameter of the bullet is shown by the "scuff collar" around the irregular hole.)

    This tells us how the bullet penetrated. The nose of the bullet touched the paper and stressed the fibers to the breaking point. The nose of the bullet entered the small hole and "shouldered" its way through, causing the radial tears.

    This is somewhat similar to the way a round nose bullet penetrates flesh. The actual hole is smaller than the bullet. There will be no radial tears, however, because flesh is elastic and can give enough to allow the bullet passage.

    This is why semi-wadcutters are so dramatically more effective than round nose bullets of the same caliber, weight and velocity -- they chop out a bigger hole.
     
  2. lsudave

    lsudave Member

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    If anything, I think the price and availability of the RIA and similar 1911's have lead to a resurgence.
    We went through a phase where everything had to be doublestack Wondernines, and these became plastic Glocks, which morphed into the .40 S&W polymer guns. That's fine for cops.

    For the private individual, in all honesty, if 7 rds aren't enough, you're in some serious trouble that is beyond any pistol's capabilities. And also, with private ownership comes a sense of pride, and that often goes to a more aesthetically pleasing gun; you want something that looks good and is crafted well, not just a tool. Even the bargain level 1911's have that appeal.
     
  3. Panzerschwein

    Panzerschwein member

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    The M1911A1 is the greatest combat handgun ever made.

    Aside from that, it's an American icon.

    The M1911A1 isn't going anywhere. More companies make the M1911A1 now than ever before. The gun is perhaps more popular now than it was 50 or even 100 years ago. It's popularity won't wain until someone makes some electro phased plasma rifle in the 40 watt range.
     
  4. lsudave

    lsudave Member

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    OP referred to what he saw at self-defense classes; I think we can address that.

    I still feel like I'm young, but perhaps I'm becoming a curmudgeon; but either way, I feel that I know how to shoot my pistols, and don't feel the need to take a class for that. I know what works for me, and as far as my accuracy goes, I think it's good enough to do the job.

    I own quite a few pistols, because I like them. Yes, I have a lot of 9mm's, because there were some cool ones around (and I love my CZ 75), but the classic 1911A1 GI model in .45 acp is, for me like for a lot of Americans my age and older, a must-have.

    Go anywhere that sells different models of pistols, and you will likely see as many brands of 1911's as the combined total of various polymer 9mms. Seemingly every manufacturer other than Beretta and Glock make their very own 1911, and I suspect within a decade they will, too.

    Sig would not make one, if they didn't understand that there's still a huge market for them.
     
  5. Fiv3r

    Fiv3r Member

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    I respect the 1911, but I've bought and sold 3 of them. It think it's a fine gun, but I never could carry mine comfortably no matter how much I spent.

    I just purchased an XDS in .45 thinking it was going to be a more comfortable (lighter) pistol close to a 1911 Commander, and it's going to the chopping block. It's not the .45's fault. Springfield gave me a less than ideal answer I had about a brass to the face issue, and the gun store that sold it to me was less than honest with me....so it's gone. Nothing wrong with the gun (well short of flicking brass into my eyes), but the deal left a bad taste in my mouth.

    That said, I do like the .45 at the range. I just don't tend to carry a gun in that caliber. I usually carry a polymer .40 or snub .357 in the woods, and a full size Beretta if want more capacity when out and about. However, I'm an admitted .380 mouse-gun girly-man. It's the only gun I will ALWAYS carry.

    I don't think the .45 or 1911 is going anywhere, but I don't think it's going to be in my wheelhouse.
     
  6. MIL-DOT

    MIL-DOT member

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    Despite the predictable fact that 1911/45 fans are still loyal to the platform, it's also a fact that it's gradually being eclipsed by more modern designs, that have higher capacity, less weight and bulk, are simpler to field strip or fully disassemble, and have lower production costs. This is predictable and inevitable.
    The 1911 is a cool pistol, that will always have a following, but I'd say calling it, "the greatest combat handgun ever made", is merely an opinion based on emotion, nostalgia, and personal taste. It is hardly an established fact.
     
  7. Warp

    Warp Member

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    That is not my experience.
     
  8. 200Apples
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    200Apples Member

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    Ah, the voice ^ ^ ^ of the unenlightened...


    While not a combat scenario, the story speaks for itself.

    Then there was Sgt Alvin York, who, when armed solely with his 1911, The Greatest Combat Handgun Ever Made, took out a German machine gun position and walked over 132 German soldiers to their capture.

    http://www.sgtyorkdiscovery.com/The_York_Story.php
     
  9. X-Rap

    X-Rap Member

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    Hard to believe you'd of heard otherwise from Cooper, I drank his Kool-aid for over 20 years and still view him as the father of the modern pistol but what someone told him over 20 years ago is hardly new news.
    As to York, wasn't there an Enfield Rifle in there as well?

    Sent from my VK410 using Tapatalk
     
  10. JDR

    JDR Member

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    I'd like to offer up a few clarifications...it all has to do with what you are using the gun for...

    If one of my .45's has to work out of the box, with no GS tuning or tweaking, I'm going with my Gen4 Glock 21 or my HK45, hands down.

    Since all of my 1911's have been tuned & tweaked by a good gunsmith (except my Ruger SR1911 Cmdr.), I can say that my Dan Wesson Valor is more accurate, and almost as reliable as my Glock or HK.

    But if I'm using one of these in a training or heavy practice situation, where I'm shooting 200 or more rounds and the gun might get hot & dry before it gets cleaned & lubed, I'm OK with the DW Valor, but I'm more inclined to go with the G-21 or the HK45.

    A 1911 can definitely be setup by a good pistolsmith to do whatever you want to do with it, but a 1911 is definitely more maintenance intensive than some of the newer designs, and you're kidding yourself if you choose to believe otherwise. My DW is my favorite pistol, but you have to look at things objectively and use judgement to select the gun that is best suited for a specific purpose.
     
  11. MIL-DOT

    MIL-DOT member

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    Pot, meet Kettle. :rolleyes:
    The fact that the 1911 was used in a heroic act, or even a bunch of them, doesn't prove it's the greatest combat handgun ever made. Not even close.
    This "logic" is suitable for a, well.......a Democrat :D
    You're confusing "greatest, or "best", with "most iconic", which admitedly the 1911 may well be. But this gets us right back to the subjective, emotion-driven argument I referenced earlier.
     
  12. 200Apples
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    200Apples Member

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    .
    D... d.. d. democrat?!

    Them's fightin' words!

    And since I am the offended party, I have the choice of weapons, my good man: 1911s at dawn.

    :D
     
  13. MIL-DOT

    MIL-DOT member

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    Yeah, yeah, ok, you're right, that was way over-the-line. I apologize :D.
     
  14. Schwing

    Schwing Member

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    I think this topic is very similar to the "Which caliber is best" threads. There are those that love them and those that hate them.

    Personally, I have never cared for the design or ergonomics of the 1911 but can certainly appreciate its iconic status. For shear appearance, it is one of the coolest looking IMO.

    My dislike for the design I won't even go into here as it is sure to ruffle some feathers. As for me, I have found others of simpler and more modern design to be more to my liking. Others still hold them in the highest regard. At the end of the day, if you have a gun that is 100% reliable (ok... 99.999%), you shoot it well, you carry it comfortably and you just plain like it, who cares what it is?

    As far as the O.P.s original question, no I don't think 1911s or .45 as a caliber has diminished in the slightest. In fact, I think there are far more offerings for 1911s than at any other time. As for .45 somehow falling out of vogue, I see a lot of caliber arguments passed around but I still see the majority of handgun shooters at my range shooting .45. I am not an LEO but work in an LEO office and only know of 1 officer that doesn't carry a .45.

    Neither 1911s nor .45acp are going anywhere for a very long time.
     
  15. entropy

    entropy Member

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    The diameter is relevant, because no matter what number you plug in as the diameter, the answer, (the circumference) will be 3.14159....... times that amount.

    .355 x 3.14159=1.11526445

    .451 x 3.14159=1.41685709

    Using these numbers, I got the circumference of a .451 diameter is 1.27 larger than the circumference of a .355 diameter.

    Keep in mind this circumference is two-dimensional. Measuring three- dimensional non-standard structures (such as wound channels) involves calculus, count me out on that!



    Also, if what you said about terminal ballistics of pistol bullets were true, (sometimes it is sometimes it isn't) then the diameter of the bullet would be very important, as it would be the chief disabling factor. A larger diameter bullet would bleed out more, all other things being equal. (Sounds like we agree on that) Having conducted gelatin and modeling clay tests, (modeling clay isn't the best medium, but it does retain maximum expansion dimensions) I can say that even the .25 ACP FMJ does have some additional temporary cavitation (Not much, and that due to tumbling.) .
    I did those tests long ago, and I will admit I biased them towards the 125 gr. .357 Mag. JHP. I had to halt the test when I fired them, because I lot a lot of the clay!

    That said, there is tons of data, and some film, of ballistic gelatin tests out there.

    I still stand by the adage, "A 9mm might expand, but a .45 won't contract."
     
  16. joneb

    joneb Member

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    The FBI calls it blunt force trauma and the 45 acp has more of it than the 9mm Luger.
    This is coming from a FBI firearms instructor.
     
  17. edmo01

    edmo01 Member

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    You picked up on my critique for those who only look at the diameter of the bullet versus the full circumference which more accurately measures the wounding surface. If you look at the circumference of the wound hole, bigger bullets quickly gain an advantage over the various wee little bullets.

    Reference the temporary wound channel... Smarter nimrods than me have determined an impact velocity of 2,000 fps or faster imparts a significantly rapid expansion of the temporary wound channel. This increased expansion will exceed the elastic expansion of flesh and generate a greater wounding effect than slower rounds.

    The take away is the higher velocity of rifle rounds rip and tear the blood vessels more than slower pistol rounds... More blood loss equals higher "ouchie" factor.


    Remember regardless of our analysis, it comes down to the fact that pistol rounds generally suck for quick incapacitation. Additionally, accurate shot placement of multiple rounds will likely be your friend.

    Edmo
     
  18. TRX

    TRX Member

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    What you see in classes is going to depend on two things: what kind of class it is, and what's available at the local gun shop at a reasonable price.

    Right now, 9mm and .40 glockalikes are common and inexpensive, so you see them everywhere. As long as they conform to the First and Second Laws, they're good enough for their purpose.

    (First Law: "The gun *must* go bang."
    Second Law: "The gun must go bang *again*.")
     
  19. lsudave

    lsudave Member

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    Went into a big shop nearby the other day, and the ratio for semi-autos had to be close to 50-50; a counter for Glocks, another for Sigs, another for HK, CZ etc. These were rather small, and the combined total ran the length of one wall (the building is about a square in shape). That was to the right as you enter, and the used handguns took up about 1/4 of that row of pistols.

    For the row in front of you as you enter, there was a little section that seemed to be Springfield and Browning (about 1/4), then a very big section full of 1911's of every make. Maybe only a few of each brand, but they had a ton of brands; Kimber, Colt, Dan Wesson, Springfield etc (the 1911's were separated out from the other models, on the brands that make more than just that).

    I think if you removed the 22's, revolvers, and used section, it was about dead even for what was available.
     
  20. CoalTrain49

    CoalTrain49 Member

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    45 acp is all I shoot. Gold Cup is my range gun, Sig is my carry.

    But then I'm an old guy who has trouble remembering my social security number. ;)
     
  21. alexcue

    alexcue Member

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    Well, it may just be the cost to shoot. 9mm is just much cheaper to shoot all the way around. Personally I own 3 1911's. A 1943 Remington Rand 1911A1, a 1970's Series 70 Gold Cup and a SA Loaded 1911. Each takes everything I want to run through them. Heck my Remington was my primary pistol for years! It's still my favorite gun to shoot, because of the nostalgia.

    But come to the present and i own 3 going on 4, 9mm's. They are fun to shoot and really other than some not liking FP ammo, are very reliable and light in comparison to the .45's.

    Since I reload the cost is a bit less than buying, but 9mm is still much cheaper to shoot based on the amount I shoot. So someone new into the sport... which would he pick?
     
  22. wrdwrght

    wrdwrght Member

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    I like 9mm, and have SIGs, Glocks, Walthers, and CZs to push it.

    But, for self-defense, the efficacy of the round presumes an expansion that will make it more like .45ACP.

    If its expansion is not optimal, the wound channel will be less, and considerably smaller than an even non-expanding .45ACP. After all, the .45ACP is inherently wider and, wait for it, has more mass.

    But the difference between the two rounds is not measured in orders of magnitude. Indeed, even a .22LR can kill in the right circumstance. If I were to characterize the .45ACP, I'd say it's more tolerant of the wrong circumstance. When it finds flesh, the .45ACP will do as much damage as a properly-expanded 9mm even if something prevents the .45ACP's proper expansion. Instructive here is Iraqveteran8888's YouTube video (https://youtu.be/VDnsGe0QwhA) showing .45ACP passing through 3/4 inch plywood at 440 yards.

    Whatever the truth of the matter, I'll just say that my 1998 SIG P220 has been joined this year by a Colt 1911 Series 70, a CZ 1911A1, and a higher-capacity Walther PPQ45. And I have a higher-capacity CZ97BD on my radar.

    So, I'm doing what I can to keep John Moses Browning's .45ACP, not to forget his 1911, alive. I just wish manufacturers would lower their prices to make my effort easier.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2016
  23. MIL-DOT

    MIL-DOT member

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    For what it's worth, i stumbled across a thread on another forum the other day, where someone made a comment about .45 being a dying caliber, and several people agreed, and I don't recall anyone arguing the point.
    It may be falling out of favor a bit, relative to others, but IMO "dying" is pushing it, but it seems to be what some folks feel.
    I'm not making an argument either way, just posting that because it's relevant to the discussion topic at hand.
     
  24. Lj1941

    Lj1941 Member

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    John Moses Browning got it right 105 years ago. Some of the modern "Polmyer Wonders" are good but not better than what Browning gave us way back then. The demise of the 1911 A1 has been greatly exaggerated.
     
  25. Woolecox

    Woolecox Member

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    No. Not here.

    IMG_0760_1.jpg

    IMG_0761.jpg
     
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