.45 Rifle Ideas

[arcticap]

I’ve used Bobby for a shocking number of barrel projects and I won’t enumerate them here for fear that Mrs Woodnbow gets ahold of this iPad... every single time he has hit the mark. Sometimes the barrel hasn’t worked out the way I envisioned but that was because my expectations weren’t in line with the physics of lead moving rapidly down a steel tube. No fault of Mr. Hoyt.

Plus he bears the surname of the greatest recurve bowyer of my generation, Mr. Earl Hoyt Junior. RIP...

I don't recall ever reading a bad report about a Hoyt barrel. But if a person ends up choosing round bottom rifling, it won't be the same as conventional rifling.
It looks great and may shoot patched round balls great, but I don't know how that rifling performs with conicals compared to a factory barrel.
And I've never seen what the rifling of the barrel liners look like or heard much about how well they perform.
The liner options may be so slim that you get what you get since he may only be installing it.
It would be a gamble to think that a barrel liner will perform as well as a factory barrel, maybe it will and maybe it won't.

 

[woodnbow]

I don't recall ever reading a bad report about a Hoyt barrel. But if a person ends up choosing round bottom rifling, it won't be the same as conventional rifling.
It looks great and may shoot patched round balls great, but I don't know how that rifling performs with conicals compared to a factory barrel.
And I've never seen what the rifling of the barrel liners look like or heard much about how well they perform.
The liner options may be so slim that you get what you get since he may only be installing it.
It would be a gamble to think that a barrel liner will perform as well as a factory barrel, maybe it will and maybe it won't.

In my case at least, he reamed the liners to the diameter I needed before rifling them. The bullet barrels appear to have square bottom rifling.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Working with a 13/16” barrel (thinking along the lines of a drop-in barrel for a Crockett rifle) I’ve thought it would be cool to have a handy carbine that shoots my revolver bullets paper patched or something (I’ve always liked the idea of compatible ammo). ..., I don’t think I’d want anymore than 60 grns and that 285 grn bullet from what would no doubt be a light rifle.

Well if you're going to have the barrel done, will you not want a faster twist like a 1:20 or a 1:16 to stabilize that bullet? Essentially you're going to be duplicating in a muzzle loader a .45-60 cartridge round. It should hammer whatever you're looking to shoot....

I should think then if you come close to what already works for barrels for cartridges that are doing what you plan to do with a muzzle loader, it would be just dandy. Here's a chart from Uberti on twist rates, and rifling specs..., https://www.cimarron-firearms.com/bore-groove-twist

LD

 

[arcticap]

Well if you're going to have the barrel done, will you not want a faster twist like a 1:20 or a 1:16 to stabilize that bullet? Essentially you're going to be duplicating in a muzzle loader a .45-60 cartridge round. It should hammer whatever you're looking to shoot....

I should think then if you come close to what already works for barrels for cartridges that are doing what you plan to do with a muzzle loader, it would be just dandy. Here's a chart from Uberti on twist rates, and rifling specs..., https://www.cimarron-firearms.com/bore-groove-twist

1. Accordng to the Greenhill Formula Calculator, the optimal twist rate for Rodwha's 245 grain bullet is 1 in 62" to 1 in 63". --->>> https://www.vcalc.com/wiki/AndrewBudd/Greenhill+Formula+for+Optimal+Rifling+Twist+Rate

2. The Miller Twist Rule is said to be an even better calculator for optimal bullet twist rate.
According to the Miller Twist Rule Calculator, the optimal twist rate for Rodwha's 245 grain bullet is 1 in 58". --->>> https://www.vcalc.com/wiki/AndrewBudd/Miller+Twist+Rule

The values plugged into these calculators for the 245 grain bullet:

Greenhill:
Diameter: 0.454
Length: 0.497
Specific gravity: I used both the the 10.9 default for lead core bullets and 11.35 which is the specific gravity for pure lead, very little difference in the results.
Velocity: I used velocities between 1200 to 1700 FPS with very little difference in the results.

Miller:
Diameter: 0.454
Length: 0.497
Mass: 245

3.. Accxording to the Greenhill Formula Calculator, the optimal twist rate for Rodwha's 285 grain bullet is 1 in 45" to 1 in 47".

The values plugged into these calculators for the 285 grain bullet:

Greenhill:
Diameter: Used both 0.454 and 0.456
Length: 0.675
Specific Gravity: I used both the the 10.9 default for lead core bullets and 11.35 which is the specific gravity for pure lead, very little difference in the results.
Velocity: I used velocities between 1200 to 1700 FPS with very little difference in the results.

4. The Miller Twist Rule is said to be an even better calculator for optimal bullet twist rate.
According to the Miller Twist Rule Calculator, the optimal twist rate for Rodwha's 285 grain bullet is 1 in 44.4" to 1 in 44.5".

Miller:
Diameter: Used both 0.454 and 0.456
Length: 0.675
Mass: 285

I believe that the reason for the slower optimal twist rates for these .45 bullets is due to their relatively short length and light weight.
The shorter the length, the lighter the weight of the bullets, thus the slower the optimal twist rate needs to be to stabilize the bullet.
Hence the slow optimal twist rate.
At 0.497", the length of the 245 grain bullet is about the diameter of a .490 round ball which is very short for a conical bullet.
Here's the link to Rodwha's 285 grain bullet and spec's. --->>> http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-285C-D.png

 

[rodwha]

Well if you're going to have the barrel done, will you not want a faster twist like a 1:20 or a 1:16 to stabilize that bullet? Essentially you're going to be duplicating in a muzzle loader a .45-60 cartridge round. It should hammer whatever you're looking to shoot....

I should think then if you come close to what already works for barrels for cartridges that are doing what you plan to do with a muzzle loader, it would be just dandy. Here's a chart from Uberti on twist rates, and rifling specs..., https://www.cimarron-firearms.com/bore-groove-twist

LD

Ah, yes. This is one thing I’m not knowledgeable on as far as the specifics. I understand that in a given barrel the longer the bullet the faster the spin, but I also understand that velocity plays a hand as well. I see Lyman has a shallow groove intended for conicals with a 1:48” twist, just as they also have the 1:32”. I see the .44 Mag uses a 1:20” twist and these would be similar in weight and speed from a rifle, however my bullets are short for their weight. My 195 grn version is merely .460” long. Usually they’d be much longer. Even my 285 grn bullet is rather short, closer to the length of an average 255 grn bullet or a little more. I’d prefer a twist that works well with my bullets and hopefully allows me to even use even commercial bullets if I chose (255-300 grns or a little more).

 

[rodwha]

1. Accordng to the Greenhill Formula Calculator, the optimal twist rate for Rodwha's 245 grain bullet is 1 in 62" to 1 in 63". --->>> https://www.vcalc.com/wiki/AndrewBudd/Greenhill+Formula+for+Optimal+Rifling+Twist+Rate

2. The Miller Twist Rule is said to be an even better calculator for optimal bullet twist rate.
According to the Miller Twist Rule Calculator, the optimal twist rate for Rodwha's 245 grain bullet is 1 in 58". --->>> https://www.vcalc.com/wiki/AndrewBudd/Miller+Twist+Rule

The values plugged into these calculators for the 245 grain bullet:

Greenhill:
Diameter: 0.454
Length: 0.497
Specific gravity: I used both the the 10.9 default for lead core bullets and 11.35 which is the specific gravity for pure lead, very little difference in the results.
Velocity: I used velocities between 1200 to 1700 FPS with very little difference in the results.

Miller:
Diameter: 0.454
Length: 0.497
Mass: 245

3.. Accxording to the Greenhill Formula Calculator, the optimal twist rate for Rodwha's 285 grain bullet is 1 in 45" to 1 in 47".

The values plugged into these calculators for the 285 grain bullet:

Greenhill:
Diameter: Used both 0.454 and 0.456
Length: 0.675
Specific Gravity: I used both the the 10.9 default for lead core bullets and 11.35 which is the specific gravity for pure lead, very little difference in the results.
Velocity: I used velocities between 1200 to 1700 FPS with very little difference in the results.

4. The Miller Twist Rule is said to be an even better calculator for optimal bullet twist rate.
According to the Miller Twist Rule Calculator, the optimal twist rate for Rodwha's 285 grain bullet is 1 in 44.4" to 1 in 44.5".

Miller:
Diameter: Used both 0.454 and 0.456
Length: 0.675
Mass: 285

I believe that the reason for the slower optimal twist rates for these .45 bullets is due to their relatively short length and light weight.
The shorter the length, the lighter the weight of the bullets, thus the slower the optimal twist rate needs to be to stabilize the bullet.
Hence the slow optimal twist rate.
At 0.497", the length of the 245 grain bullet is about the diameter of a .490 round ball which is very short for a conical bullet.
Here's the link to Rodwha's 285 grain bullet and spec's. --->>> http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-285C-D.png

I’m surprised the ideal twist rates were that slow!

Thanks for the twist rate calculator links!

 

[Jim Watson]

Only thing, if you optimize a custom barrel for that revolver bullet and it doesn't shoot well, you may be out of luck.

 

[arcticap]

Pedersoli sells their Scout rifle in .32, .45 and 50 calibers.
As a kit Dixie sells it for $590.
I wonder if they would do a special order for a smoothbore .50 barrel, or sell extra accessory barrels on request.
The .50 has a 1 in 34" twist, the .45 has a 1 in 48" with 28 3/8 inch barrels. --->>> https://www.davide-pedersoli.com/sc...r_96/rifles-scout-scout-percussion-model.html

Dixie sells a variety of Scout rifle kits:--->>> https://www.dixiegunworks.com/index...10+Pedersoli+Scout+Carbine+Kit+.45+Percussion

I wonder if one of the old time Pedersoli distributors like Flintlocks, Etc...in MA has a close enough relationship with Pedersoli to make things happen.
He was a Pedersoli distributor that also had a connection with Navy Arms going way back.
His website shows him with different members of the Pedersoli family on different pages. --->>> http://www.flintlocksetc.com/contact_us.htm

And in Texas, Pedersoli distributes some guns through the Italian Firearms Group --->>> http://www.italianfirearmsgroup.com
They have a direct line to Pedersoli and DP may even be part owners of it.

The Scout is a nice gun, very much like the Crockett rifle in dimensions and weight.
And the kit costs within a $100 of a new Crockett Rifle.
All a person basically needs to do is to stain and finish the wood.
If they will sell you an extra barrel or two that could fit your bill.

 

[rodwha]

Only thing, if you optimize a custom barrel for that revolver bullet and it doesn't shoot well, you may be out of luck.

For sure, and a reason I wanted it to have a twist that works with commercial bullets as well, the more typical 250/255 and hopefully a 300 grainer too. I feel fairly confident that were I to twist it optimal for a 250/255 grn (or my 285 for that matter) then my lighter/shorter bullets and those 300’s would likely do well enough.

 

[woodnbow]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-Badger...895329?hash=item4db36001a1:g:xYMAAOSwp7dey0JE

$330.00 for a Badger barrel blank. You would have to chop an inch or so from the breech and fit the breech plug of your choice but this would shoot pure lead bullets sized .450 or thereabouts. With your 50 grain loads and pistol bullets it should shoot just fine and yet be capable of handling over 500 grain spitzers too. Paper patched or grease grooved as you wish.

 

[rodwha]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-Badger...895329?hash=item4db36001a1:g:xYMAAOSwp7dey0JE

$330.00 for a Badger barrel blank. You would have to chop an inch or so from the breech and fit the breech plug of your choice but this would shoot pure lead bullets sized .450 or thereabouts. With your 50 grain loads and pistol bullets it should shoot just fine and yet be capable of handling over 500 grain spitzers too. Paper patched or grease grooved as you wish.

That’s a barrel company not on my radar (looking at just muzzleloaders like Oregon, etc.). Thanks!

 

[rodwha]

I’m doubting my universal bullet would work well pushed by 50 grns without further hardening. I don’t know the particulars on when lead needs to harden to keep from stripping, but I’m going to guess 2% tin just won’t be enough to handle the velocity (215 grns estimated at 1450 FPS with 50 grns). And there’s still the aerodynamics and whether or not there’s an issue. Will coming down from being super sonic disrupt it, this “wobble?” If wobble is an issue I either have to stay under 1200 FPS or harden the bullets enough to push them fast enough.

In all seriousness this bullet pushed from my ROA and a 35 grn charge of 3F Olde/T7 is likely around 1000 FPS by itself. Put an 16-20” barrel on that and now you actually have something workable (on paper). Looking to hit around 1200 FPS would basically make it similar to a .44-40. Not bad at all in my eyes, but not exactly what I had in mind. Hopefully they’d work as they’d be my most common bullet and why I wanted it to work. I’d like it to work with my 285 grn bullet too since it’s just sitting there, wasted expense on a custom mold at this point.

If I recall correctly Kaido was selling his cast bullets a bit harder than 2% tin being at something like 12 BHN. I used many but in my Ruger. Not sure how a NMA’s assembly would handle long term use of something that hard.

As a full bore conical do bullets needs to be sized 0.001” under bore? And is a wad/card necessary?

 

[rodwha]

Looking a little more I see I like that 285 at 1200 FPS for what it is too, and much more inline with what I have in mind. A 45-50-285...

Running that with a conservative .190 BC at 1200 gives me .44 Mag (pistol) performance with a 4.5” drop at 125 yds with a 100 yd zero and it’s still chugging along at 1000 FPS with 633 ft/lbs.

Even at 1100 FPS it’s impressive though 125 yds would be pushing it just a little too far. Not that I’m looking to shoot this far. 100 yd zeros make it all quite simple at the range for one, but being that 100 yds is far to the eyes, having a bullet still close to the aim point (I look to keep it within 4” or so) for being a bit off. I’m not bad in my guesstimating 100 yds, but I definitely err here and there.

 

[arcticap]

That’s a barrel company not on my radar (looking at just muzzleloaders like Oregon, etc.). Thanks!

The McGowen Barrels website also has a twist rate calculator: --->>> https://mcgowenbarrel.com/twist2/

FWIW, the suggested twist rate for the 285 grain bullet at 1600 FPS was 1 in 44".
With the velocity set at 1200, the twist rate changed to 1 in 38" but it states low muzzle velocity.

As a full bore conical do bullets needs to be sized 0.001” under bore? And is a wad/card necessary?

No, not normally.
The bullet usually gets engraved when started and fills in some of the groove.
A wad or card is usually optional but many do use them.
If paper patching, then an undersized bullet may be preferred, which can be sized after patching.

Are you totally against using sabots with a .50 ML barrel?
There's EZ Loading sabots that will allow loading a bullet slightly over their .451 - .452 spec's..
Or else the sabots are only a little more difficult to load with over sized bullets.
Or a .458/.50 sabot can be used that's designed for a .458 bullet.
Sabots do allow loading more types of bullets.
There's even a sabot that allows a .40 bullet to be fired from a .50 bore, or a .357 or a .40 from a .45 bore.

If using a sabot then you wouldn't need to worry about the hardness of the lead and firing it at a higher velocity.

 

[rodwha]

I need to make a mark on the calendar to set off on the hour and some drive to the range so I can further detail what these pistols will do now that I have a better measure. I’m rethinking this further universal use in a rifle barrel and thinking that either which way this goes I think it really should have a bit longer OAL making it harder to turn it off track. I would lose some wound track size since it would slow down some, but it’s not like it’s small hole, and additional mass will keep it trucking better. I had really hoped I could get to 230 grns with this bullet anyway, and it might get close, but there’s just something magical about a 230 grn bullet in a .45 I suppose sacrificing 1/4” at 15 yds offhand might well be worth the trade offs any which way you split this. I certainly wouldn’t cry if it turned out I could squeeze it into a 245 grn slug.

 

[rodwha]

No way I’d want to push a heavy bullet that fast from what this would essentially be, a lightweight short carbine. Might likely require beefing up the rifle to handle, which I wouldn’t want to need to do. The more I look at this the more I like the idea of .44 Mag performance and the recoil level I guess it would provide.

I have REALs and know they most certainly work that way. I look at the Great Plains and Maxis, etc. and see those long driving bands. Always figured those to be no more than a hair over bore since it would just take so much to drive them. But I don’t know. And I know some projectiles work off of obturation, most certainly Minies. It seems a bullet that fills the groove diameter would do ok until the base band grabs, and with a powder charge that high it will happen quickly and surely.

I am not anti sabot unless I were to find plastic hard to clean up, which sometimes seems to be the case. I corresponded with a sabot company and we found they wouldn’t work. I don’t recall which company it was. I’m pretty certain they were not .458x.50, but that he thought would stretch enough from .454 or something like that. I’m always willing to try different things as long as it doesn’t become too costly, or tedious, or messy (like nitrating cigarette papers). I like simplicity when I can have it. Something I can grease and ram down wins for me, though you’d find me stuffing it in a sabot if my groups were suddenly dämn near right on top of each other at 100 yds for sure. I have most certainly eyed sabots that use a .40 cal as it’s the one bullet I found with a high enough BC and velocity to make 200 yds a possibility.

I do like the idea that hardness, to a point, wouldn’t be an issue. How does 2% tin react when striking a deer or a hog at 1300 or even 1400 FPS? I’ve read and been told pure lead deforms somewhere between 1100-1200 FPS and a tremendous reason why my handgun bullets wear wide meplats. I don’t mind some expansion but I feel I need the shank if you will to at the very least be as long as it is wide just to do ok not unlike what we see with modern expanding bullets. The longer it is the better it’s going to be able to handle tougher situations. I don’t mind having some limitations, but would rather not if I possible.

I guess another question is who uses harder than 7-8 BHN on a regular basis with bullets loading with the ram assembly of their NMA.

I’ve not looked any deeper into alloys than 2% tin as it seemed most are considered taboo for muzzleloaders, cap n ball more to the point, but also with REALs, also what I cast.

 

[rodwha]

If I added mass to this bullet I’d want to further reduce the top driving band since pressures would go up in that NMA, the weak link.

 

[rodwha]

I’m still at a loss for whether or not coming through the sound barrier will or can create wobble on a wide meplat, and the impact it has and for how long.

And I’m having trouble finding the articles I read way back when I created my original designs, in it it was claimed a meplat over 78% could cause the bullet to not track straight (on impact?). But then we see bullets even wider than mine uses. Theirs are much longer and heavier.

 

[arcticap]

Fast twist .45 inlines cost $800 or more now days because they have a 1 in 20" twist and are considered to be long range rifles.
CVA used to make some inexpensive .45 inlines with a 1 in 28" twist such as the Hunter Bolt, Mag Bolt and the Kodiak rifles.
They cost under $200 at the time they were being produced.
But a person needs to do their homework before buying one unless they're willing to experiment.
A lot of old posts seem to indicate that they were fussy about which bullets they preferred and that it took a long time to figure them out.
Some folks used the Powerbelt bullets that have plastic skirts.
There's a brand new .45 Kodiak rifle with a nickeled barrel for sale on Gunbroker right now. --->>> https://www.gunbroker.com/item/882809990
The Sportsman's Guide sold the exact same model for $199 years ago.
Electroless nickel barrels are very slick, durable and easy to clean.

 

[gemihur]

Gonic Arms GA-90 20" barrel .45 caliber 1:22" twist 340 gr. cast .458 bullet


Gonic Arms GA-90 16" barrel .45 caliber 1:22" twist 340 gr. cast .458 bullet

 

[woodnbow]

I’m doubting my universal bullet would work well pushed by 50 grns without further hardening. I don’t know the particulars on when lead needs to harden to keep from stripping, but I’m going to guess 2% tin just won’t be enough to handle the velocity (215 grns estimated at 1450 FPS with 50 grns). And there’s still the aerodynamics and whether or not there’s an issue. Will coming down from being super sonic disrupt it, this “wobble?” If wobble is an issue I either have to stay under 1200 FPS or harden the bullets enough to push them fast enough.

In all seriousness this bullet pushed from my ROA and a 35 grn charge of 3F Olde/T7 is likely around 1000 FPS by itself. Put an 16-20” barrel on that and now you actually have something workable (on paper). Looking to hit around 1200 FPS would basically make it similar to a .44-40. Not bad at all in my eyes, but not exactly what I had in mind. Hopefully they’d work as they’d be my most common bullet and why I wanted it to work. I’d like it to work with my 285 grn bullet too since it’s just sitting there, wasted expense on a custom mold at this point.

If I recall correctly Kaido was selling his cast bullets a bit harder than 2% tin being at something like 12 BHN. I used many but in my Ruger. Not sure how a NMA’s assembly would handle long term use of something that hard.

As a full bore conical do bullets needs to be sized 0.001” under bore? And is a wad/card necessary?

Idaho Lewis is shooting pure lead up to 1700 fps without leading. Lube is the magic ingredient, SPG lube with a small 2.5 oz. bottle of Stihl HP synthetic chainsaw oil added. Note, the bullet which leads a revolver barrel may be doing so as it makes the jump from chamber to bore. The rifle bullet makes no such leap and stands a much better chance of sealing the bore immediately and completely.

I size some bullets to bore size, some a thousandth or so under. your short revolver bullets would probably be fine at bore size or even a couple thousandths over. An oversized wad is a key component both for creating a seal which helps with leading and creating a seal which gives the bullet a chance to bump up to bore size (which helps prevent leading)...

 

[woodnbow]

By the way... it occurred to me that you might try a .45 caliber T/C barrel intended for the Seneca or Cherokee. they will shoot your revolver bullets and not cost an arm and leg! The 1 in 48 twist can stabilize the short bullet and even longer bullets as well...

 

[TheOutlawKid]

Mr.rodwha i too am looking to design a .45 cal.bullet between 260-285 grains and to be used in a 1:48 twist. Im leaning towards a Lyman Plains design. I want it to have a wide meplat as well. I currently have a .45 t/c hawken that i purchased from a trusted forum member here..gave me a pretty good deal too. I also own a .54 cal lyman deerstalker. These two will be my go to muzzleloaders for hunting and plan on taking game with both roundball and conical. So far im leaning towars the Lymans Plains bullet design or the Hornady Great Plains bullet only not hollow pointed or hollow based.

 

[woodnbow]

Kid, that 45-345i from Accurate is just what you want, (just a trifle heavier) I wonder if he would create a 300 grain version of that bullet? I’m looking for a copy of the 345i in .40 caliber. It should come in around 280 or so and be a dandy deer and antelope gun for my granddaughters... (and me when I get too old to handle big gun recoil...)

oh yeah, no excuses used to make a 285 grain .45 flat point too!

 

[TheOutlawKid]

Mr.woodnbow I checked accurates catalog and cant find the 45-345i, only 45-345A. Wouldnt a bullet at 345 grains be too long for my 1:48 twist? Im new to the whole twist vs bullet length thing...revolvers are a piece of cake for me but when it comes to muzzleloaders with conicals and twists im still new and learning. I would love one in the 285-315 range but i was hesitant to design one at that length due to the twist rate. What say you mr.woodnbow? I trust your feedback and opinion as you actually use these to hunt...successfully too. I love this .45 , its really grown on me. Would love to have a single bullet combination that would do everything and not have me mess with patches. Just powder, felt wad, single bullet design thats laser accurate.