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45 super

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by Fire8523, Jan 6, 2014.

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  1. Fire8523

    Fire8523 Member

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    I have been reading up a lot lately on the 45 super load. I understand it can go kaboom in your hand but I find it to be a very good for ballistics. My question here is looking at pistols and the baby eagle comes to mind because of how solid it is built. I have looked around and found that the 45 acp model can be converted to 10mm. With that being said and a few spring improvements what do you guys think on the baby eagle as a 45 super gun
     
  2. Thompsoncustom

    Thompsoncustom Member

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    With .45 super I would say about any .45 with a ramped and supported chamber should be fine. I agree with you the ballistics of that round are very nice my cousin runs underwood's 45 super in his little xds. But you could always go 460 rowland :) so at what point do you stop and give up a little power for follow up shots.
     
  3. hentown

    hentown Member

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    Unless you're the kind of guy who likes to "turn heads at the range," or, you're the kind of guy who wants to assassinate Bambi with a .45acp, then I just don't see the point of dumping a little more powder into a .45acp case.

    Just for the novelty of the experience, I fired some .45 Supers and .450 smc through a Glock 21. The G21 was outfitted with a threaded, compensated barrel.
     
  4. Delford

    Delford Member

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    If I were looking to assassinate Bambi's dad, would a .45acp at 25 yards or under do the job?
     
  5. rockhopper46038

    rockhopper46038 Member

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    Not as well as the aforementioned .460 Rowland.
     
  6. Chuck Perry

    Chuck Perry Member

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    Slide mass is usually of concern for these conversions. I'm not familiar with the Baby Eagle, but it sounds like a compact/subcompact? From what I recall of Super conversions they were usually limited to 4"+ pistols.
     
  7. MachIVshooter

    MachIVshooter Contributing Member

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    Not easily.

    .45 Super isn't a .45 ACP case. It's based on the .451 Detonics case, shortened to ACP length. Much thicker web to deal with the pressure increase (which is still well below 9x19mm, .40 S&W or 10mm).

    The Baby Eagle .45 is a semi-compact with a 3.7" tube. It's also a pretty heavily constructed pistol. I should think it would be fine.
     
  8. hardluk1

    hardluk1 member

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    You may want to read up for your self about the 460 conversions. Theres as many or more down side to them as up side. Might as well buy a desert eagle and have a gun designed for handling cartridge in the 460 / 44mag range. The hotter the round the longer the barrel and mass need to be the deal with it well. Even the 45 super does not trun well in a short 1911. Most 460's need a comp too.
     
  9. hentown

    hentown Member

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    Starline, at least, doesn't make .45 Super brass as described. It's simply .45acp with a thicker web and "special heat treating" of the brass.

    To me, it's still just dumping a little more powder into a .45acp case, and is of no interest.
     
  10. Deaf Smith

    Deaf Smith Member

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    I fire .45 Supers out of my S&W 625 3 inch .45 ACP all the time.

    Real good loads there.

    Deaf
     
    Someguy.429421 likes this.
  11. BlindJustice

    BlindJustice Member

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    I looked up .45 Super Buffalo Bore
    offerings:

    230 gr. JHP @ 1,100 FPS
    200 gr. JHP @ 1,200 FPS
    185 gr. JHP @ 1300 FPS

    If I had a need for it, I'd shoo tit
    out of my 625 but not the 1911, even if it was
    beefed up/converted for it.

    230 gr. at 90 FPS lenadsitself
    for a qjuicker 2nd shot than the .45 Super imo
     
  12. BlindJustice

    BlindJustice Member

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    Did the O.P. ever state what he wanted the .45 Super for?

    I looked up .45 Super Buffalo Bore
    offerings:

    230 gr. JHP @ 1,100 FPS
    200 gr. JHP @ 1,200 FPS
    185 gr. JHP @ 1300 FPS

    If I had a need for it, I'd shoo tit
    out of my 625 but not the 1911, even if it was
    beefed up/converted for it.

    230 gr. at 90 FPS lenadsitself
    for a qjuicker 2nd shot than the
    .45 Super imo as well as the .45 ACP being
    subsonic for HD.

    If yah just want a big boom or blow stuff ereal good
    get a .44 Mag or 454 Casull etc.

    Randall
     
  13. Riomouse911

    Riomouse911 Member

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    I have a Springfield V-16 .45 Super. I love the caliber, but I hate crawling about looking for the rare brass to reload. It is fun, doesn't kick much more than my standard 1911, and has more whack on my steel plates than the ACP loads.
    This gun will also shoot standard pressure .45ACP and +P loads without a change of recoil springs with 100 pct reliability ( so far, knock on wood).
    My only gripe with the gun is the need for three hands to reassemble the long-slide sized full length guide rod/recoil spring set up. THAT is a grizzly bear to do alone!
     
  14. RX-79G

    RX-79G Member

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    A Baby Eagle is a Witness in a different shape. The Witness is made in 10mm, so it wouldn't be crazy to think .45 Super is possible.
     
  15. Phaedrus/69

    Phaedrus/69 Member

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    I really need to pick up a few boxes of .45 Super to try out in my USP45 Tactical. I'll also have to see if my new USC can run .45 Super...
     
  16. el Godfather

    el Godfather Member

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    Buy a H&K Mark23 and fire whatever Super load you can find through it.
     
  17. Fire8523

    Fire8523 Member

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    I like h&k just don't like the price tag. As far as the need for the power no I don't need the power but that dosnt mean I don't want to shoot it. And I will check into the 454 but most I find also have the 1000 dollar price tag but thank you everyone for your input
     
  18. Bongo Boy

    Bongo Boy Member

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    I've actually been researching 45 Super and 460 Rowland quite a bit lately out of curiosity. The 460 Rowland really wasn't even a consideration after a short read, and having no SAAMI standards associated with it made all the more uninteresting to me, along with no published load data from folks able to actually measure the pressures they get with those loads--at least none I'm aware of.

    But you asked about the 45 Super and I believe it's fair to say that brass is just as available for it as it is for 10mm Auto--you just have to wait until the only source for it that I'm aware of (Starline) is willing to take orders for it, and you place your order. Same as 10mm Auto.

    I lost interest in this one, two, since modest ballistic differences in calibers aren't of any importance to me, and not of much interest either. I see almost nothing available that's specifically chambered for 45 Super. SO, given that 10mm Auto ballistics are close enough for my purposes, I know for a fact the round can be loaded very accurately, and a fair number of guns are chambered for it, I just found no reason to introduce another oddity cartridge to the clan.

    In the case of 460 Roland, 45 Super and 10mm Auto, small boutique manufacturers may produce ammo with performance claims having varied accuracy, and wildly varying safety, IMO. Pulled-down ammo from some manufacturers that has remarkable performance shows clearly why: loaded to well over maximum specs by all indications.

    I'm an absolute 10mm bigot, so I simply have to find something in auto pistol that really impresses me all the away around...and I don't see it. Believe me, I was seriously looking for any excuse at all to get a pistol with more oomph (just for fun), and was this close to getting a DE in 44 Mag. That's when I started the search for 45 Super and 460 Rowland options, and neither makes any sense to me over 10.
     
  19. Deaf Smith

    Deaf Smith Member

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    Looks like the .45 Super option only needs a extra-heavy duty spring. That and if you use the SMC version (short magnum cartridge) with small primers you then have no primer flowback problems.

    That way, any 1911 merely needs a 28 to 30 lb recoil spring and a heavy duty firing pin spring to fire .45 Supers. Cost is about $8. Might want a shock buff to.

    Clark's Custom Guns makes 1911 .460 Roland conversions. Looks like the barrels are not even ramped.

    http://clarkcustomguns.com/rowland.htm

    Here is a guy who converted a Taurus 1911 to .45 Super.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNybSEKQiws

    In fact go to Youtube and search for .45 Super and you will find several videos.

    Nice thing is you can just put in the 28 lb spring (and extra strong firing pin spring) and handload .45 Super brass to get the 230gr JHPs at say 1000 fps and leave it alone. Sort of a +p+ .45 ACP.

    But.... while I have about 500 rounds of .45 Supers myself, I use them in my 625 ONLY.

    Deaf
     
  20. SDGlock23

    SDGlock23 Member

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    I post most of my Super data over on GT, but a lot of it gets pretty warm. I think the advantage the 10mm has is achieving what it can in (mostly) stock form. My Gen4 20 will digest some pretty warm handloads, but my Gen4 21 won't take warm .45 Supers, or I should say I'm not going to try it since factory Glock .45 barrels have the WORST case support. I did get a good KKM barrel for both (standard for the G20, threaded/comped for the G21), and although my data is mostly my own, the biggest advantage as a whole the .45 Super has over the 10mm is in it's ability to shoot the big heavy .45 Colt bullets. The disadvantage for the Super is that loaded warm it has to be comped whereas the hottest 10's don't. The disadvantage with the 10mm is that most .400 JHP bullets are designed with .40 S&W in mind, so the speeds that many love the 10mm for are just too fast for the bullet, which hurts performance.

    A warm 10mm will run a 180gr XTP (for instance) at 1300, whereas the Super can run a 250gr XTP that fast. Although my "testing' isn't scientific, Hornady rates both the .400" 180gr XTP and the .451" 185gr XTP the same (up to 1,450 fps) although the profiles of both bullets are quite different. From what I've found, the 185gr XTP despite is lower sectional density held together better and penetrated about the same as the 180gr XTP, despite being driven faster. My warmest 10mm 180gr XTP is moving around 1,360 fps from a 4.6" KKM, and my warmest .45 Super 185gr XTP is almost 1,600 fps. What does that mean? Not much, admittedly, other than the .45 Super will out muscle the 10mm handily, but I'm not saying anything against the 10mm either, it's a favorite of mine too.
     
  21. Bongo Boy

    Bongo Boy Member

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    I'd definitely like to see published load data or pressure measurements for that load. Under 1,200 fps with a 230 is about the hottest thing I've seen floating around the internet, and just in looking at other cartridges (albeit with larger cases), I see pressures around 37-38,000psi to get close to that velocity with a 250 gr 45 cal bullet. It seems then you'd be well over 50% over any rule-of-thumb pressure for 45 Super (nominally 28,000 psi ?). In any case not what I'd consider to be what 45 Super should do.

    If anyone is actually measuring 45 Super pressures, it would be nice data to see. It just seems bogus to say a cartridge is capable of something when no one knows what pressure it takes to get that performance, and no one has taken the time to develop a recommended standard for it.

    This isn't unique to 45 Super by any means, and wouldn't go away just because of a recommended standard. Many folks seem to want 10mm to also be the thermonuclear powerhouse that legend and lore have it to be, when it just isn't. As a result, ridiculous loads abound everywhere it seems, with folks arguing over whether their blown primers and ballooned case heads are due to overloading or bad barrels or slide speeds--and the only data to be had is charge weights, coming in at 15% over published maximums. No guts, no glory I guess. :)
     
  22. MachIVshooter

    MachIVshooter Contributing Member

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    I think you've confused the .45 Super with the .45 Winchester Magnum.

    The .45 Super falls between the .45 ACP and .460 Rowland, a bit shy of full power 10mm Auto.
     
  23. Deaf Smith

    Deaf Smith Member

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    250gr at 1300... My 4 inch .44 magnum can't do that!

    Yes I am sure he googled '.45 Magnum' and cane up with the .45 WM. It is a powerful round but I sure won't get my 625 rechambered for THAT!

    Yes a 1911 10mm will be somewhat ahead of a 1911 .45 Super but if all you pay is 20 bucks to make that .45 Super from our 1911 .45 then I'd just go that route.

    Deaf
     
  24. Thompsoncustom

    Thompsoncustom Member

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    Just some numbers from Underwood ammo which loads some of the hottest stuff:


    Caliber: 10mm Auto
    Bullet Weight: 220 Grains
    Bullet Style: Hardcast Flat Nose
    Case Type: Brass

    Ballistics Information:

    Muzzle Velocity: 1200 fps
    Muzzle Energy: 703 ft. lbs.


    Caliber: 45 Super
    Bullet Weight: 230 Grains
    Bullet Style: Speer Bonded Jacketed Hollow Point
    Case Type: Brass

    Ballistics Information:

    Muzzle Velocity: 1100 fps
    Muzzle Energy: 618 ft. lbs.


    Caliber: 460 Rowland
    Bullet Weight: 230 Grains
    Bullet Style: Speer Bonded Jacketed Hollow Point
    Case Type: Brass

    Ballistics Information:

    Muzzle Velocity: 1400 fps
    Muzzle Energy: 1001 ft. lbs.
     
  25. SDGlock23

    SDGlock23 Member

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    Nope, those are real numbers, not a .45 WM. What most don't realize is that .45 Super brass is equally as strong as 460R brass (per my own tests and per Starline as well). Where 460R brass is just slightly longer which prevents it from chambering in the "wrong" gun. As long as the same OAL is utilized, the 460R and .45 Super can and are identical, and because of that, both eclipse the 10mm not only in power (ft-lbs) but more importantly in their ability to shoot bigger, heavier bullets actually designed for those energy levels, unlike the 10mm.

    The .45 WM is very powerful, but also generally uses slightly different powders to achieve it's top end speed compared to the Super/Rowland.

    Yeah the 250gr at 1300 is pretty stout, but with the comp installed it's not too bad. If you're playing with a setup that isn't comped, you'll have to hold off the real warm .45 Supers, but still, I think it's got the advantage over the 10mm in every dept (well except maybe capacity).
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2014
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