Went to the range with a dozen loaded 458 SOCOM (new Wilson Defense AR build kit-barrel, bolt & carrier). New Starline brass FL sized with Lee Die, CCI 350, RL7, Hornady 325 FTX. 5 of the 12 failed on first try, examined one and it looked like it had a very light firing pin ding. 2 of the 5 FTF fired on second try, other 3 would not and show no signs of firing pin strike. I have a Hornady headspace comparator, but not the correct bushing. I improvised with a 13mm deep socket to check relative headspace (yes this is sloppy) averaging 8 pieces of each (except 3 for FTF). With new Starline brass as 0, my FL sized brass was approx. -.0016, FTF pieces were +.0013, and fired brass was +.0108. This doesn't make sense as a headspace issue - could I have a bolt/firing pin problem?
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Blue68f100
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My 458 SOCOM upper is from Tromix and has a very tight chamber. Tony was the man that came up with this round and did all of the initial testing for the military. I use the cut away case gauge to check my sizing. I know on my gun if it does not pass the gauge it will not chamber. Also this is one round that is hard to crimp w/o collapsing the shoulder. So if your crimping stop, it's not needed in this round. Your gauge is telling you your not getting the brass consistently sized right. Or your collapsing the shoulder while seating the bullet.
When I got into the SOCOM most recommended that the Redding dies were the best. Sized the rounds to spec where some where out. Now the 458 SOCOM is in the final stages of approval. Once this is done there may be several builders that have SOCOM's out of spec.
This is the forum that covers the 458 the best. http://458socomforums.com/
btw. With the Starline brass it MUST be Sized before loading.
When I got into the SOCOM most recommended that the Redding dies were the best. Sized the rounds to spec where some where out. Now the 458 SOCOM is in the final stages of approval. Once this is done there may be several builders that have SOCOM's out of spec.
This is the forum that covers the 458 the best. http://458socomforums.com/
btw. With the Starline brass it MUST be Sized before loading.
Thanks for info
I appreciate your comments. But I am still puzzled as to why my loaded rounds are longer than the FL sized. Could be my rinky-dink measuring I guess; but I was careful with the set-up. I used the Lee FC die to light crimp - for chamber diameter mostly(drop test). Guess I need to figure out how to FL size and not bump the shoulder. Could I use some kind of dry lube on the rounds when seating? As it is, the brass is tight in the chamber, some I had to seat hard and most of the brass has abrasion marks along the walls between head and shoulder. With the cost of the brass this is a pricy exercise!
I appreciate your comments. But I am still puzzled as to why my loaded rounds are longer than the FL sized. Could be my rinky-dink measuring I guess; but I was careful with the set-up. I used the Lee FC die to light crimp - for chamber diameter mostly(drop test). Guess I need to figure out how to FL size and not bump the shoulder. Could I use some kind of dry lube on the rounds when seating? As it is, the brass is tight in the chamber, some I had to seat hard and most of the brass has abrasion marks along the walls between head and shoulder. With the cost of the brass this is a pricy exercise!
ArchAngelCD
Member.
Before you shorten anything try this. Don't use the method suggested in the die instructions to set the sizing die, use your chamber. Size the brass then check it in your chamber. If it fits correctly you are good, if not make adjustments until the brass is correctly sized. When you get the adjustment correct for your rifle lock down the die and you will no longer have problems. (most likely lol)
Blue68f100
Member
Remember on a AR you should be able to easily close the bolt by hand and eject. If it sticks on eject or slight nudge on locking your still too long.
Thanks for the comments. I think I have learned that the 458 is a lot more sensitive than the other run-of-the-mill reloads (38spcl,45acp, 308, 5.56,etc.) I have been loading. Glad I only loaded 12 for the first run! I had sized down until they passed the "drop test", but guess I must have shorted them with the Lee Factory Crimp die (VERY light crimp I thought) in trying to get a consistent neck tension. I am just curious why the last three rounds I loaded were the FTF - don't think I made any changes in settings at that point. I would think it would take quite a squeeze to shorten the case enough so that the firing pin would not strike. The primers on these rounds look untouched.
jmorris
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I might not be understanding your question but the problem I had and thought what might be happening to the OP is that the die would contact the shell plate. So the shoulder would not be pushed back far enough causing a failure to feed and chamber the round.
After rereading and his last post, sounds like it is chambering the round fine but failing to fire.
If you put a round in the chamber then install the charging handle and bolt carrier and push it in can you feel the extractor snap over the rim, the rear of the bolt carrier now flush with the upper receiver and then eject the round?
If so the extractor itself would hold the case enough to light off a primer if everything else is OK. If the extractor won't snap over the rim you have sized too far and need to back the die out. If the extractor snaps over the rim but the bolt won't close (carrier not flush with receiver) you are not sized enough.
Looks like you might have to try this with just cases and loaded rounds to see if your crimp is messing things up.
FWIW not firing upon the first strike and firing with subsequent strikes sounds like you primers not be seated well enough.
Blue68f100
Member
The drop test is only valid by using the bolt to check head space.
Yes this is a touch round to load. Get the Sheridan case gauge for this round, well worth it. It will actually show you where the problem is. http://www.tromix.com/458-socom-parts-1.html has them at a reasonable price.
FTFire then fires on the second try normally is the cause of primers not fully seated. But with a AR if the bolt is not fully locked you may get light strikes. Then re-chambering the round your bolt had a more velocity and chambered fully, when using the charging handle.
Learn again (sigh) - KISS (keep it simple stupid!). With the help of others' comments and backing off to look at facts . . . I Followed JMorris' suggestion, and resized brass until the bolt would lock down. I've cycled and popped a couple of primers, so I feel confident I can fire rounds now. Probably could size down some more, but I'll load a dozed here and see what happens. Thanks for the help.
ArchAngelCD
Member.
May I suggest putting just a primer in a few pieces of sized brass and try firing the primer just to be sure you have no other problems before you go back to the range.
Apparently, not enough. What confused me was I "blackened" a case and ran in, the bolt would only close with force - but the brass showed no signs of scratches - even the shoulder. But then, in retrospect I had the answer all along in my original data "...]and fired brass was +.0108...". I finally realized the "force" required was way more than the ejector spring. I sized down until the bolt locked easily and I got a primer to fire, then went down another 1/8 th turn on the die to be sure. Fired another primer easily. So I'll go with that for now. I use a universal decapper, so I can just lock this die down permanently! Thanks all for the kind assistance.
SAGA continues . . . without a tedious history, here's where I am now: I've cranked down on the sizing till I am almost fearful. With just the lower on bench, a shell will lock up only if I pop the bolt carrier hard with my palm, or with stock on let the bolt slam with the buffer. Pulling the bolt back is hard - difficult to unlock. If I place a shell in the extractor, push over against the ejector to center the case, and then guide it into battery I get an easy lockup. Seems like the extractor is causing the difficulty. Does this make sense?
Blue68f100
Member
Take a look look at the sizing die and confirm it's a sizer and not a seater with the sizer internals.
Thanks JMorris - it seems to me the extractor is very strong. Using my two palms close to my chest I can't come even close to enough force to snap the extractor over the rim. With the muzzle on the floor and pressing with both my thumbs on the bolt carrier it won't close. It would take quite a whack with a mallet to close it - and I am sure now it is not case length that is the problem.
Blue - it is a sizer. Came with a decapping pin (which I have removed). It's a Lee 3-die set: sizer/decap; powderthru expander, and seater. I don't know the exact headspace, but I do know the brass I am doing my testing with now has 0.012 in shorter headspace than the last brass I fired. It's a cobbled-up headspace comparator using a 13 mm deep socket, but I'm confident it has plenty enough accuracy for this.
Blue - it is a sizer. Came with a decapping pin (which I have removed). It's a Lee 3-die set: sizer/decap; powderthru expander, and seater. I don't know the exact headspace, but I do know the brass I am doing my testing with now has 0.012 in shorter headspace than the last brass I fired. It's a cobbled-up headspace comparator using a 13 mm deep socket, but I'm confident it has plenty enough accuracy for this.
jmorris
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Wbstx11, this is a video of me doing what I am talking about on mine. I latch the charging handle and "pinch" the charging handle and carrier towards each other, just the force from the weakest finger I suppose.
Might have to play the video a second time if it looks like it's skipping on the first play.
Now I have to go find where that dollar rolled to...
Might have to play the video a second time if it looks like it's skipping on the first play.
Now I have to go find where that dollar rolled to...
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JMorris. Thanks a lot, quite kind of you. In the interim I think I solved it. Duhhhhh . . . why not just remove the extractor and try the brass? Yep, locks easily with the shortest brass and not with the longest. So now I'll just creep down to the correct size. Looks like the 13mm socket is now a permanent part of my reloading kit. The extractor spring is compound - a small rubber cylinder inside the spring + an "O" ring around the spring. I presume they have a reason for it - but it's a darn stiff unit. It takes some real muscle to just pull the action open when there's a round in the chamber.
jmorris
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Not a problem and that is using your head to solve the problem. Might not show of its sticking but you can tell that when you push it out with your cleaning rod. I am at a loss why they set it up to work different than every other gas operated AR I have messed with.
Sometimes you get to understand something better when you try to explain it to someone else - think this was the case. I am pretty close I think - the gap between slam to close and opens easily is about 0.012 (without extractor present). I can creep down to the place I want now I think, test a couple, then I'll load up a dozen rounds and head to the range. Now if I can find a load for 300gr Sierra Pro-Hunter with RL7 or Lil'Gun.
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