45acp Case Longevity Test Update

[CQB45ACP]

Before I primed my test cases I decided to see if the primer pockets continue to tighten. Yes.

After 28 shootings during my test and how many others before I began in May 2023, the pockets are certainly tightening. So, when we say "the brass has to go somewhere", into the primer pocket is one place for sure.

The "shallowing" of primer pockets was ultimately why the Florida Reloading guy quit his longevity test at 54 shootings. See this article http://www.floridareloading.com/index.php/2017/02/04/how-many-times-can-i-reload-45-acp-brass/

I've discussed this in the past and have found some tightening but I don't check that often in part because it's a PIA but also because one starts to perceive ghosts and other things that might not be real. Did you feel that? Hear that? What was that? You know, all those things the guys on Zack's team say. (Reference to an obscure TV show.)

So, I waited until any tightening couldn't be denied and found 47 of 100 cases where the gauge wouldn't fit due to depth or width. Not all felt or were the same--don't know why. The "feel" of some of the tightening could possibly be exacerbated due to "stickiness" of really clean brass & gauge but still the gauge don't lie.

Nor can I begin to explain why the remaining 53 haven't tightened for this particular measurement. Perhaps they were among the one's that had tightened earlier but I fixed? Who knows. Yes, it's yet another flaw in my testing. I look forward to you correcting it in yours

Anyway, there you go and off I go to use my K&M uniformer and RCBS crimp remover in electric drill to uniform these.

 

[ballman6711]

So, I waited until any tightening couldn't be denied and found 47 of 100 cases where the gauge wouldn't fit due to depth or width. Not all felt or were the same--don't know why. The "feel" of some of the tightening could possibly be exacerbated due to "stickiness" of really clean brass & gauge but still the gauge don't lie.

The "why" could be a multitude of reasons. One possible reason could be brass composition. Even though you're using same headstamp brass, you could and most likely do have brass from multiple lots. Another possible reason is work hardening. You didn't start with all new brass, just all same headstamp, and who knows how many times each were fired before you started your test. This may be less likely since you started with a minimum case length, indicating there may be a limited number of firings before you started your test. Just guesses on my part.

Nor can I begin to explain why the remaining 53 haven't tightened for this particular measurement. Perhaps they were among the one's that had tightened earlier but I fixed? Who knows. Yes, it's yet another flaw in my testing. I look forward to you correcting it in yours

Once again, it could be multiple things. Even shooting through different guns could make a difference. A difference of a couple thou headspace between guns could allow brass shot in one gun to slam into the breech face with more force than if it was shot in a different gun.

All speculation and guesses on my part.

Thanks again for doing the testing, and updating us from time to time. I've enjoyed seeing the results, and look forward to more updates since I mostly shoot the 45acp.

chris

 

[Hooda Thunkit]

I shoot many, many times with one batch of brass, especially with 7.62x54r. I will reload 15 or 20 times without full-length sizing.

I find that after about 8 or 10 loadings the primer pocket need to be chamfered again, as the base (the 'head') of the cartridge slamming into the bolt-face of the rifle collapses the walls of the primer pocket - the leading edges are the first to show it. The result is problems priming; the primer will stick going in the pocket.

After about 20 loadings I need to re-cut the primer pockets, as the depth changes. The head of the cartridge is being moved forward, making the pocket shallower.

At least, that's my theory.

 

[CQB45ACP]

The "why" could be a multitude of reasons. One possible reason could be brass composition. Even though you're using same headstamp brass, you could and most likely do have brass from multiple lots. Another possible reason is work hardening. You didn't start with all new brass, just all same headstamp, and who knows how many times each were fired before you started your test. This may be less likely since you started with a minimum case length, indicating there may be a limited number of firings before you started your test. Just guesses on my part.

Once again, it could be multiple things. Even shooting through different guns could make a difference. A difference of a couple thou headspace between guns could allow brass shot in one gun to slam into the breech face with more force than if it was shot in a different gun.

All speculation and guesses on my part.

Thanks again for doing the testing, and updating us from time to time. I've enjoyed seeing the results, and look forward to more updates since I mostly shoot the 45acp.

chris

Thanks for the analysis. It's as accurate as possible given all the unknowns.

But now I've got to start over using just one pistol

If I were to start over I'd do many things differently. Maybe. It's much more fun to shoot when I'm not distracted by thinking about other than hitting the target.

BTW, I did cut down 100 brand new Starline 45 Win Mag to 45acp and am keeping a strict count on number of shootings. Two so far for 16 of them. One lost (ouch) and haven't used the others. About the time WV mandates EV only mining equipment I'll report the results.

 

[CQB45ACP]

I shoot many, many times with one batch of brass, especially with 7.62x54r. I will reload 15 or 20 times without full-length sizing.

I find that after about 8 or 10 loadings the primer pocket need to be chamfered again, as the base (the 'head') of the cartridge slamming into the bolt-face of the rifle collapses the walls of the primer pocket - the leading edges are the first to show it. The result is problems priming; the primer will stick going in the pocket.

After about 20 loadings I need to re-cut the primer pockets, as the depth changes. The head of the cartridge is being moved forward, making the pocket shallower.

At least, that's my theory.

That's good to know. Thanks.

One thing I've noticed with this exercise is how easy my pistols are on headstamps. They aren't getting beat up too much. Not performance related per se but does go to the amount of hammering they're getting.

 

[ballman6711]

But now I've got to start over using just one pistol

I had to chuckle at that! It wouldn't be reasonable for any of us to ask you to do that.

That's good to know. Thanks.

One thing I've noticed with this exercise is how easy my pistols are on headstamps. They aren't getting beat up too much. Not performance related per se but does go to the amount of hammering they're getting.

Using target loads should have the brass lasting much longer than full power loads. I have some brass that I can barely see the headstamp, who knows how many times that stuff has been shot.

Maybe I should get a pocket uniforming tool.

chris

 

[CQB45ACP]

I had to chuckle at that! It wouldn't be reasonable for any of us to ask you to do that.

Using target loads should have the brass lasting much longer than full power loads. I have some brass that I can barely see the headstamp, who knows how many times that stuff has been shot.

Maybe I should get a pocket uniforming tool.

chris

Well I had been looking at a WC anniversary special. But hopefully I've waited to long to get one.

That uniforming tool is fun...I use it outside on the driveway. Looks like brass colored pixi dust everywhere.

 

[ballman6711]

Well I had been looking at a WC anniversary special.

Just checked that out and it is a beautiful gun. Out of my price range currently, but someday I may be able to get a WC. If I saw one at a decent price, say $2K or thereabouts, I would probably jump on it and proceed to shoot the snot out of it. I currently only have one 1911 that I haven't shot, but that may change later this summer. I'll post a pic in a few minutes.

chris

 

[FROGO207]

Interesting!
Again, thanks for this update OP.
Much easier on consumables and the pocketbook for me as a bystander LOL.

 

[Soonerpesek]

But now I've got to start over using just one pistol

I had to chuckle at that! It wouldn't be reasonable for any of us to ask you to do that.

Well....................now that it was brought up...............................!!..........................I could be the perfect unreasonable person to ask............................!!

 

[ballman6711]

S&W commemerative "POW" in 45acp. Probably thousands made. Not sure if it's been fired, Dad gave it to me years ago and has told me that it's had a few rounds through it as well as never having been fired. His memory isn't great these days, so short of taking it apart I don't think I can tell.


chris

 

[CQB45ACP]

S&W commemerative "POW" in 45acp. Probably thousands made. Not sure if it's been fired, Dad gave it to me years ago and has told me that it's had a few rounds through it as well as never having been fired. His memory isn't great these days, so short of taking it apart I don't think I can tell.
View attachment 1219523View attachment 1219522View attachment 1219521

chris

A beauty. Don’t have to shoot it a lot but it was made to be shot

 

[ballman6711]

A beauty. Don’t have to shoot it a lot but it was made to be shot

I agree. I've had it about three or four years now, and every time I see it I think I should shoot it. I've looked into the value of the gun, and it seems to have gone down a bit from the price he said he'd paid. So no real collector value, really most commemorative guns don't appreciate anyway.

Looking at the pics I took it looks like the gun has some rust, but it's actually in mint condition, just funny reflections from the lights.

I think next time I go to the range I'll take it with me. My veteran buddy would probably enjoy shooting it, as would I.

chris

 

[FROGO207]

Shoot'er a bunch, clean her well after and she'll outlast us and the next generation at minimum. Everything I own is shot as I want. No safe queens in my home LOL.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Shoot'er a bunch, clean her well after and she'll outlast us and the next generation at minimum. Everything I own is shot as I want. No safe queens in my home LOL.

I had one commemorative. An 1871-1971 H&R Trapdoor Officer’s Rifle. I bought it in ‘91 or thereabouts for around $3bills. Sold it in 2016 I think for about $4bills. I lost money on inflation. I should’ve shot it. Never again.

 

[CQB45ACP]

Generally, commemoratives don't seem to be good investments largely because there is no limit to production--everyone that wants one, buys one, and thereafter newcomers on the secondary market want discount prices. Goes in cycles.

Even when production is limited there are no guarantees. I haven't looked at the prices recently but Indy Pace Cars & other special edition cars were the same way. Once a Boomer or wealthy collector gets the car they "always wanted" the market dries up. Doesn't mean the prices drop necessarily just that they don't keep appreciating any better than a non-pace car. They start at a 25% premium and stay there for example.

But back to firearms and reloading combined with collecting--elsewhere some of you were talking about a Sharps carbine. Even hunting with one. Years ago at the big gun show in Chantilly, an antique dealer from the Shenandoah Valley had a Sharps with initials carved on the stock. The rifle and owner had been traced back to a specific named Union officer in Sheridan's cavalry's 1864 "burning" campaign. How it ended up here in the south, I don't recall. But I do recall the $1,000 price. I wanted it badly but the carved initials were rather large and sloppy and I doubted the provenance for some reason so didn't buy it.

 

[murf]

Dave Scoville addressed this phenomenon (shallowing primer pockets) a while back in a handloader article. he called it "foreshortening".

luck,

murf

 

[CQB45ACP]

Dave Scoville addressed this phenomenon (shallowing primer pockets) a while back in a handloader article. he called it "foreshortening".

luck,

murf

Subscription must be necessary to search...I googled and couldn't find it. Not to circumvent restrictions or anything, but you wouldn't have a link would you?

 

[murf]

Subscription must be necessary to search...I googled and couldn't find it. Not to circumvent restrictions or anything, but you wouldn't have a link would you?

Dave was the editor of handloader magazine for a number of years and wrote the opening article for every issue. It's in there somewhere. you can contact Wolfe publishing and purchase a single issue, but I'll pass on reading 20, or 30 articles to find it.

luck,

murf

 

[CQB45ACP]

Dave was the editor of handloader magazine for a number of years and wrote the opening article for every issue. It's in there somewhere. you can contact Wolfe publishing and purchase a single issue, but I'll pass on reading 20, or 30 articles to find it.

luck,

murf

Think I'll pass too.