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45acp LSWC, fail.

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by kmw1954, Feb 2, 2020.

  1. kmw1954

    kmw1954 Member

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    Today I finally got a chance to test fire these 200gr LSWC bullets I cast a while back. Was able to try these in two different guns, a Springfield XD Mod2 and a Tanfoglio Witness. Now I know there was a thread somewhere regarding the SWC being used in the XD and the problems many had but now of course I cant find it.

    Right away I was having cycling and chambering problems with both guns a couple ended up with crushing on the case mouth and the bullet shoulder. I couldn't even get 10 rounds through either gun and gave up. Maybe it's time to look for a RN or a FP mold.
     
  2. drband

    drband Member

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    How deep are you seating the bullets? How much shoulder is exposed?
     
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  3. kmw1954

    kmw1954 Member

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    Length is 1.235" and I had to seat them very deep in order to even get them to pass the plunk test. The bullet shoulder is barely out of the case.
     
  4. kidneyboy

    kidneyboy Member

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    A thumbnail thickness of the shoulder is enough outside the case.
     
  5. drband

    drband Member

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    Thumbnail shoulder thickness (about 0.030”) should be ok. If you have that much, then maybe your ramp & chamber just don’t like the swc profile. Do those pistols function with FMJ and HP ammo?
     
  6. drband

    drband Member

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    One other thought: in my 1911 and cz97, I can get stoppages if the bullet is seated too deeply. Is it possible that you could increase the oal a bit and still pass the plunk test? Differences in just a few thousandths sometimes make a difference.
    Just thinking “out loud.” Hope you get it sorted out.
     
  7. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    XD had straight slide rib that allowed extracting case rim to hit the shoulder of SWC round in the magazine.

    Starting with XDm, this was corrected by protruding slide rib (like many other semi-autos) that pushed the top round in magazine down for extracting case rim to clear the shoulder of SWC.

    [​IMG]
     
  8. 243winxb

    243winxb Member

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    May need a .451" diameter bullet so the bullet shoulder doesnt make contact on chambering.

    If rounds dont fully chamber, will not go in the last 1/4", try a little more taper crimp.

    What is the load? Powder/amount, brass, primer, dies, Mold number using to cast?
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2020
  9. kmw1954

    kmw1954 Member

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    Mold is a Lee 200gr SWC, Powder is 4.9gr HP-38 with R*P brass. OAL is 1.235" Every round was plunk tested before firing. Many of these were not even getting to the chamber and some the nose of the bullet was lodged against the top of the chamber. Was seeing that with both guns. Right now I have 40 loaded and about another 20 still on the bench that have been lubed. Not a big loss.
     
  10. Erief0g
    • Contributing Member

    Erief0g Contributing Member

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    I had a very similar issue in my sig 1911 with 200 gr plated swc 45acp bullets. Increased my oal and feeding issues were fixed. The thumbnail thickness over the brass to the shoulder did not work at all.
    The shoulder now sits at about .070 over the brass. 20200203_041248.jpg

    With the shorter length mine would jam on the first two rounds at least. During testing I shot my test rounds by loading five instead of eight in the mags.

    Fortunately I had room without plunk issues.
     
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  11. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    Lee mold for 200 gr SWC produces bullets with shorter flatter nose and requires shorter OAL to feed reliably. Look at comparison picture below of 230 gr RN with contact points further down the nose/ogive for HSM HP bullet (RN with tip cut off) that requires shorter OAL.

    [​IMG]

    Below left is Lee 200 gr SWC TL loaded to 1.180" OAL next to MBC 200 gr SWC (IDP #1) on the right loaded to 1.250" OAL which are "max OALs". Shoulders above the case mouth of Lee 200 gr SWC is about thumbnail thickness (1/32 of an inch). Just like HSM HP bullet above, Lee 200 gr SWC requires shorter OAL to duplicate the contact points of 230 gr RN (as 200 gr SWC bullets are essentially 230 gr RN with materials removed around contact points)

    [​IMG]

    But for my Sig 1911 barrel with no leade, I use shorter 1.240" as "working OAL" to better clear the start of rifling and compensate for shorter resized case lengths that allow more shoulders to stick above the case mouth. And like HSM HP and Lee SWC, below right in the picture is MBC RNFP (IDP #4-XD) essentially RN with tip cut off that Brad so named to feed in XD pistols like butter instead of SWC that wouldn't feed for models with flat slide rib (fixed in newer XDm models with angled slide rib).

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2020
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  12. forrest r

    forrest r Member

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    +1^^^^^^

    Way to long, 1.180" will get you in the ballpark.
     
  13. 243winxb

    243winxb Member

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    Magazine issue-
    Seems like the rounds are not being help by the magazine correctly. Do all magazines do it? I number my magazines to keep track of what one is giving problems.

    I bend metal magazine lips in to hold the round better, so rounds dont pop out to soon. Make a tiny adjustment on 1 magazine at a time. More towards the front of the magazine.

    The rounds case head/rim has to sit high enough in the mag for the slide to make contact. This pushs rounds out of mag into chamber.

    I measure the lip bending in thousands with a Vernier caliper. Small adjustments.

    If mag adjustment doesnt help-
    Change slide timing by increasing or lowering the powder charge. Or use the old standard, Alliant Bullseye powder. 3.8 grs to 4.4 grs. For 200 gr lswc.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2020
  14. 243winxb

    243winxb Member

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    They plunk, thats good.
    I set bullet seating depth by measuring case head to bullet shoulder. .947" works for me with Lymans long nose 200 gr lswc with bevel base. 45acp947inch_001.JPG.jpg


    Watch for bullet set back on chambering. Low bullet hold. Years ago it was a problem for me using .452" lswc bullets in Remington brass. May not be an issue.
     
  15. 243winxb

    243winxb Member

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    xd4510-1200x1200_1440_detail.jpg Oops, no front lips to bend.:thumbdown: Bend the back, or shoot Berry's 185gr and 200gr Flat Point . You said Berrys work over on Castboolits. :)ATTACH=full]889178[/ATTACH] XD MOD 2
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2020
  16. kmw1954

    kmw1954 Member

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    Well guys I tried to get a picture but my camera sucks grapes, I can't get it to focus close enough to get a good clear closeup.

    These bullets are the Lee 200gr bevel base with the lube groove and not the tumble lube model. These look very much like the one you have pictures in this post. Length from head to bullet shoulder in 0.923" so that is .024" shorter than what you show... At 1.180" sorry but the bullet shoulder would be below the case mouth so I doubt that will get me into the ballpark..
     
  17. kmw1954

    kmw1954 Member

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  18. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    Then make a dummy round (no powder, no primer) starting at max OAL that will freely chamber in the barrel and spin without hitting the rifling (I suspect 1.255" OAL), feed from the magazine by releasing the slide without riding it.

    If the dummy round does not feed reliably, incrementally decrease the OAL (say by .005") until it feeds reliably from the magazine.

    If one of your barrel requires 1.235" OAL, you may have very short or no leade like my Sig 1911 barrel that requires 1.240" working OAL to feed reliably.

    I would work with one pistol at a time starting with the one that requires longer max OAL.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2020
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  19. JamieC

    JamieC Member

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    What is the crimp? I had a long learning curve when I built my first 1911, had all kinds of feeding issues TILL I got the crimp .469" and UNDER. I 'shoot' for .468", I have had NO more feeding issues. I was amazed what a couple thousandths of an inch mattered! May not apply in your case, but ya never know. I'm loading Bayou Bullets 200gr LSWC
     
  20. kmw1954

    kmw1954 Member

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    Isn't that the standard operating procedure for any new load? Already been thru that and that is how I established the working length of this bullet.
     
  21. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    Last edited: Feb 3, 2020
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  22. gunlaw

    gunlaw Member

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    I think ya need to seat those a little deeper. Go gradually deeper until they feed and function. Personally I find SWC more trouble than they are worth for the 1911 and 45 acp in general. If you want a different bullet profile try a 220g TC. Feeds great and I have had very good results with this bullet.
     
  23. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    But "working length" means the OAL reliably feeds and chambers from the magazine. ;) "working OAL" could be the same as "max OAL" but often shorter as illustrated in this reference thread - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...let-max-working-oal-col-for-reference.848462/

    So is 1.235" max OAL or working OAL?
     
  24. kmw1954

    kmw1954 Member

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    In this case I am using the "working length" reference as the length that would plunk in the barrel. Not a measure of would they cycle. I still do not trust a cycling test that isn't accomplished with a hot fire.

    I did read those two links and had read many like those before but after buying the mold. I knew the Witness would give me trouble because I have trouble with that gun and reloads in general. Though they way they were very nicely plunking in and out of the barrel I thought I had gotten lucky. Guess not.

    The XD from their forum and a number of others I understood there was a problem with some of the models but I never found anything definitive in regards to the Mod2. Even with the XDm it seemed hit or miss.

    Now to all, I can accept that this bullet most likely will not work in these two guns and yes I am disappointed but not going to give up on cast lead yet. I will now begin to look for a RN or FP mold. I have seen a couple on Accurate Molds that interest me. Though they are much more costly than a Lee mold.
     
  25. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    Lee makes mold for 200 gr RNFP which is similar to MBC IDP #4-XD - https://www.midwayusa.com/product/101021623

    [​IMG]
     
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