45acp or 10mm For Hiking Carry?

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As @WrongHanded said, I like to hike National and State Parks. I conceal carry what I carry. 1) I don't want to bring attention to me as the guy with the gun. 2) I don't want to let my biggest threat (two legged critters) know that I have a firearm. 3) The weight I carry is important to me.

When I'm scouting areas I hunt and game season is open I will carry a long gun.
 
WrongHanded said:
If guns were available "off-the-shelf" configured for .45 Super, that would make a big difference to me. I'm just reluctant to go messing around to try and run a .45 acp at those greater pressures.
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Understandable but having messed with 45 Super quite a bit the only thing you really need is a barrel with good support, which many 45's have and depending on gun, a stiffer recoil spring, but that's not an absolute, it depends on the gun and I would think an XD would be stout enough. Upper end 45 Super when you start getting into 460 Rowland territory is another story, it requires a comp, but "regular" 45 Super should work just fine in just about any 45 ACP that's relatively modern.
 
I have seen where they have used the XDM for the 460 Rowland.
I emailed Springfield Arms about running +p in the XDM and they replied that it is fine for the +p loads as is.
45 super should be fine with a barrel and stiff spring.

I think that I will stick with 45 acp+p in mine.
 
WisBorn said:
As @WrongHanded said, I like to hike National and State Parks. I conceal carry what I carry. 1) I don't want to bring attention to me as the guy with the gun. 2) I don't want to let my biggest threat (two legged critters) know that I have a firearm. 3) The weight I carry is important to me.

When I'm scouting areas I hunt and game season is open I will carry a long gun.
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just got back from a two day tent camping trip on the mogollon rim (arizona). a momma black bear lives around here (per the camp host) and there are new bear boxes in the campground.

i brought my blackhawk in 45 colt for a tent gun and i have my lcpII in my pocket when i go hiking (three times about two miles each hike). never saw the bear but heard elk bugling each night (it's the rutt up here).

i'm not worried about a bear on a hike during the day. the lcp is for a "just in case" scenario. i keep the blackhawk in the tent at night in case the bear comes around looking for the food we have. the tent gun selection is arbitrary. i have previously used a g19 and a g30 for that purpose.

i'm west of the mississippi, but the situation is the same, i think.

luck,

murf
 
Snowdog said:
I'm a fan of both the .45acp and the 10mm. I only have one 1911 in 10mm but have several .45acp 1911s. Any of them will work for trail use.

My trail pistol started off as a .45acp but snuck off and became a juice monkey. Now it's a 'roid-raging 13+1.460 Rowland while though much louder, is still quite manageable in terms of recoil (despite the .44magnum-esque 240gr JHP at 1300 FPS/900 ft-lbs of energy).

View attachment 1026382
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Cool hand cannon
 
East of the Mississippi a 45 will do just fine.

However, I work and recreate in the woods and illegal pot farms and small meth amphetamine cook sites are becoming an increased threat. I tend to wander off trail and could easily stumble into someone tweaked up and ready to fight or kill, because they aren't in their right mind.

So to me a 10mm is a natural choice, because it's plenty to handle any dangerous animal I'll encounter, including a human, and on the chance I stumble into the wrong area and someone starts actually shooting, it'll give me a little better range to shoot back, and hopefully get myself out of the area.

It's probably a 6 of one, and a half dozen of the other type distinction, and I don't exactly worry about it that much.

Sometimes I carry a 45, or a 9mm, or a 357. If I'm going to the land of moose and big bears, I will bring something with more punch.
 
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460Shooter said:
However, I work and recreate in the woods and illegal pot farms and small meth amphetamine cook sights are becoming an increased threat. I tend to wander off trail and could easily stumble into someone tweaked up and ready to fight or kill, because they aren't in their right mind.
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North West Montana, right?
 
WisBorn said:
Springfield Arms fans! They are now offering a 10mm XDM compact. This is similar in size as a Glock 29.

Time to save my pennies :D

https://www.springfield-armory.com/

View attachment 1028778
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Looks cool, but I'd have some very real concerns about recoil management and follow up shots with that or the G29. I don't have any experience with the 10mm (yet), but it obviously must have more recoil than a .40S&W. And also must have more recoil than even my .357 Sig loads, which are pushing a 124gr at around 1340fps out of a G33 (based on chrono reading from a P224 with a 3.5" barrel), or for reference 1425fps out of a G23/32.

My point is that relatively lightweight subcompact polymer guns are harder to control. But the need for fast followup shots doesn't diminish because we're in the woods. Based on that, my thought (and why I chose the G20) is that I would need a larger gun for a more powerful cartridge, to allow me the same (or preferably better) level of ability as my G33.

I'm sure there are some out there that shoot the G29s very well at speed. But I'd also assume it did not come without significant practice.
 
I can no longer hike, but I follow discussions of this kind.

I have a .45. I also have a good .357 686+1. The most likely dangerous threat in our neck of the woods is feral swine. I've seen them.

I always imagined the .357 to be the carry piece of choice, but then I saw this:

https://answers.fieldandstream.com/...d-like-to-know-is-it-wort?p=435034#post435034

Oooh!

Maybe a Ruger Blackhawk in .41?

Due to physical infirmities, it is a decision I do not nave to make.

Somewhat off topic, i know, nut I am not a 10MM fan, and I should think that the .45 would fall short of the .41 or .357 in terms of penetration.
 
Kleanbore said:
I can no longer hike, but I follow discussions of this kind.

I have a .45. I also have a good .357 686+1. The most likely dangerous threat in our neck of the woods is feral swine. I've seen them.

I always imagined the .357 to be the carry piece of choice, but then I saw this:

https://answers.fieldandstream.com/...d-like-to-know-is-it-wort?p=435034#post435034

Oooh!

Maybe a Ruger Blackhawk in .41?

Due to physical infirmities, it is a decision I do not nave to make.

Somewhat off topic, i know, nut I am not a 10MM fan, and I should think that the .45 would fall short of the .41 or .357 in terms of penetration.
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Respectful opion backed up with experience is welcome.
 
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wi...ls-charging-brown-bear-with-a-9mm-pistol/amp/

9mm semiautomatic pistol, heavy cast bullets with flat sharp-edged metplats, focus controlled rapid fire at the head and spine. That's the best way to fight any animal from cougars to grizzlies. This will give you the highest probability of survival in the absence of a safari rifle.

Shot placement is the only way to kill something that large before it kills you. A bear with 6 44 Magnum slugs in his lungs can still rip your head off before he bleeds to death. He isn't going to have an existential crises upon realizing he's been shot, lay down on the ground, and hope that an ambulance and a surgeon can undo the mistake he made by attacking you (this is the "one stop shot" phenomenon). I would feel the most comfortable with a weapon that I am extremely familiar and competent with rather than one that is more powerful but that I don't train with nearly as much. I can sling 9mms into beer cans at 25 yards all day with my Glock 19 without hardly using the sights because I do it every day. 9mm solids can penetrate the skull of anything smaller than an elephant.

Change my mind.
 
UrbanHermit said:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wi...ls-charging-brown-bear-with-a-9mm-pistol/amp/

9mm semiautomatic pistol, heavy cast bullets with flat sharp-edged metplats, focus controlled rapid fire at the head and spine. That's the best way to fight any animal from cougars to grizzlies. This will give you the highest probability of survival in the absence of a safari rifle.

Shot placement is the only way to kill something that large before it kills you. A bear with 6 44 Magnum slugs in his lungs can still rip your head off before he bleeds to death. He isn't going to have an existential crises upon realizing he's been shot, lay down on the ground, and hope that an ambulance and a surgeon can undo the mistake he made by attacking you (this is the "one stop shot" phenomenon). I would feel the most comfortable with a weapon that I am extremely familiar and competent with rather than one that is more powerful but that I don't train with nearly as much. I can sling 9mms into beer cans at 25 yards all day with my Glock 19 without hardly using the sights because I do it every day. 9mm solids can penetrate the skull of anything smaller than an elephant.

Change my mind.
Click to expand...

Sounds like 9mm is definitely the best option for you. Assuming an appropriate load. But I don't think it's best for everyone, because not everyone can shoot as well as you say you can (not challenging your abilities), and also not whilst trying to react quickly to such a threat.

There's certainly an argument to shooting as many accurate shots as you possibly can, because the target is small and moving fast. But this can also bringing about uncontrolled fire in a panic. The first shot doesn't stop the threat, so it's off to the races throwing lead. At which point it's spray and pray.

On the other extreme you've got big hard hitting Magnum cartridges like the .454 Casull and up. Fewer shots -though MaxP and a few others did a video and proved even a single action can be shot very fast with such a load - but even if none hit the CNS (including penetrating to the spine), such cartridges will penetrate far deeper and with gigantic wound tracks. Maybe that's only 1 or 2 shots, but it's a lot of damage.

Every other (sensible) cartridge is somewhere in between those extremes. But the reality is, most won't get the brain shot. So we're looking at wounding damage, the possibility of broken bone, blood lose, and the potential that fear and pain will turn the animal. But even if it reaches the defender, that does not mean instant death. There's still the possibility of balling up and waiting for the drop in blood pressure. Not all grizzly attacks are fatal. Few appear to be immediately so.
 
WrongHanded said:
Sounds like 9mm is definitely the best option for you. Assuming an appropriate load. But I don't think it's best for everyone, because not everyone can shoot as well as you say you can (not challenging your abilities), and also not whilst trying to react quickly to such a threat.

There's certainly an argument to shooting as many accurate shots as you possibly can, because the target is small and moving fast. But this can also bringing about uncontrolled fire in a panic. The first shot doesn't stop the threat, so it's off to the races throwing lead. At which point it's spray and pray.

On the other extreme you've got big hard hitting Magnum cartridges like the .454 Casull and up. Fewer shots -though MaxP and a few others did a video and proved even a single action can be shot very fast with such a load - but even if none hit the CNS (including penetrating to the spine), such cartridges will penetrate far deeper and with gigantic wound tracks. Maybe that's only 1 or 2 shots, but it's a lot of damage.

Every other (sensible) cartridge is somewhere in between those extremes. But the reality is, most won't get the brain shot. So we're looking at wounding damage, the possibility of broken bone, blood lose, and the potential that fear and pain will turn the animal. But even if it reaches the defender, that does not mean instant death. There's still the possibility of balling up and waiting for the drop in blood pressure. Not all grizzly attacks are fatal. Few appear to be immediately so.
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I would sooner just use .45 Colt, standard pressure, with 255 grain Keith bullets, or even full wadcutters if I could find them. That would provide plenty of penetration and blood letting power, but I could actually shoot the thing accurately. Then after I fired all six rounds I'd draw the Glock. .454 casull isn't even safe to shoot with earplugs, so I would never train with it.
 
UrbanHermit said:
I would sooner just use .45 Colt, standard pressure, with 255 grain Keith bullets, or even full wadcutters if I could find them. That would provide plenty of penetration and blood letting power, but I could actually shoot the thing accurately. Then after I fired all six rounds I'd draw the Glock. .454 casull isn't even safe to shoot with earplugs, so I would never train with it.
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Well reasoned.

Something else for us to consider, if we're talking about Grizzly charges, is that because the bears head is likely no more than 3 feet off the ground, as it comes towards us, we have to adjust our angle of fire. And do so in the opposite direction to that which recoil is moving the gun.

Some say to take a knee and get on the bear's level. That sounds like it would need some training for those (like myself) who don't practice doing so during there time on the firing line. It also sounds like it might take a precious second, when factoring in the draw stroke at the same time.
 
Kleanbore said:
I can no longer hike, but I follow discussions of this kind.

I have a .45. I also have a good .357 686+1. The most likely dangerous threat in our neck of the woods is feral swine. I've seen them.

I always imagined the .357 to be the carry piece of choice, but then I saw this:

https://answers.fieldandstream.com/...d-like-to-know-is-it-wort?p=435034#post435034

Oooh!

Maybe a Ruger Blackhawk in .41?

Due to physical infirmities, it is a decision I do not nave to make.

Somewhat off topic, i know, nut I am not a 10MM fan, and I should think that the .45 would fall short of the .41 or .357 in terms of penetration.
Click to expand...

I read the linked post. I have to say it is hard to believe a solid .357 mag round barely penetrated the skin. Had to be a dud round.

I’ve read plenty of .357 accounts in critters and they penetrate very well with proper, solid ammo. I think your revolver is a fine choice with good solid ammo.

But I’ll also say I think your .45 is also plenty capable…again, with proper solid, flat nose ammo.
 
WrongHanded said:
Well reasoned.

Something else for us to consider, if we're talking about Grizzly charges, is that because the bears head is likely no more than 3 feet off the ground, as it comes towards us, we have to adjust our angle of fire. And do so in the opposite direction to that which recoil is moving the gun.

Some say to take a knee and get on the bear's level. That sounds like it would need some training for those (like myself) who don't practice doing so during there time on the firing line. It also sounds like it might take a precious second, when factoring in the draw stroke at the same time.
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I shoot handguns the same way I shoot bows. My entire upper body is maintaining the same consistent form for every shot, pivoting at the hip as necessary. In fact, I couldn't hardly shoot handguns at all until I learned archery and let it show me everything that was wrong with the way I used my body in general. Taking a knee might have merit but I don't readily see why that would be necessary.
 
Buzznrose said:
I read the linked post. I have to say it is hard to believe a solid .357 mag round barely penetrated the skin. Had to be a dud round.

I’ve read plenty of .357 accounts in critters and they penetrate very well with proper, solid ammo. I think your revolver is a fine choice with good solid ammo.

But I’ll also say I think your .45 is also plenty capable…again, with proper solid, flat nose ammo.
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Same, I don't buy it. Guy even claims it was a "hot FMJ". If that were true it would have gone through one shoulder plate, out the other, and would probably have been a serious health hazard to the pig behind him.
 
I had the opportunity to hunt grizzly in BC and my guide was quite specific in his instructions regarding where to shoot. He told me to not shoot the head because my bullet could actually glance off the skull. I was shooting a 7mm Rem Magnum (175 grain Rem Corelokt) so if he felt my bullet could glance off its head it is reasonable to assume that any handgun bullet would do the same. His instructions were to shoot the chest if he was facing me and shoot the shoulders if he was sideways to me.

We (myself included) love to discuss what handgun calibers are good for grizzly protection but based on my guide's extensive experience shot placement is more important than caliber. The hunters in our camp carried mostly 300 Win Magnums, one had a 338 Win Magnum and mine ( a 7mm Mag) was the smallest. As I recall our guides carried rifles that in standard calibers including 375 Winchester, 358 Winchester, 308 Win and 30-06. Not wimps but as far as muzzle energy none deliver as much as the Magnums. These guys live in grizzly country for months at a time and all felt well armed with these non-magnum rifles. To them shot placement is the key factor and if we follow this mode of thinking we can conclude that what makes any handgun a poor choice for protection against a dangerous animal charge is the caliber but the fact that handguns are much harder to shoot accurately than rifles and shotguns. My guide carried a 6-inch barreled S&W Model 19 in 357 Magnum for sidearm backup (he knew it was illegal to carry that thing in Canada but he preferred to face the law with an illegal revolver than face a grizzly without one) and for him the 357 was plenty provided he placed the shot in the right spot. Aside from an RPG I'm not sure what would 100% guarantee stopping a very angry and determined grizzly charge in its tracks but for most other situations a 45 ACP or a 10 mm with the right bullet/loading would probably do the job again, if you place the bullet in the right spot.

Getting down low to shoot a direct charge is also sound advice. Putting the rifle level with the animals chest eliminates the constantly changing vertical angle and allows you to shoot directly at the animal without need to lead it. It makes a lot of sense if you can keep your head and remember to do it. A final instruction from my guide was that once you start shooting at a grizzly you "keep on shooting until it stops twitching". I never got a shot off (at a grizzly) but I was pretty sure that after I placed my first hit my guide would probably start shooting even if I didn't need backup. He had a lot of respect for the tenacity and power of even the relatively small (500 lb) mountain grizzlies.
 
Charlie Martinez said:
so if he felt my bullet could glance off its head it is reasonable to assume that any handgun bullet would do the same.
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No it's not. Rifle bullets have long, smooth ogives and soft noses designed to expand from sheer velocity. Many handgun bullets have broad metplats with sharp edges that significantly resist deflection by "biting" the target on contact and hard cast composition that is designed to resist deformation. Something like a hard cast Keith bullet in 357 or 44 Magnum isn't going to deflect off the skull of any animal from any angle. I wouldn't believe it no matter who says it.
 
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